Trolling for the Hook of JRPGs

by Jeff Grubb, BITMOB STAFF

Tuesday, August 25, 2009

dragon-quest-ix_1965

Editor's note: To Jeff, all Japanese RPGs are basically Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest. He notes how, unlike first-person shooters, the big boys don't evolve to maintain their leadership.

But I'd say that Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest evolve as well -- take a look at the skill and combat systems from FF7 to FF12. Anyone care to explain it to him? -Jason

I've never been one for Japanese role-playing games. I agree with the complaint that all JRPGs are either Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, but is that fair? JRPGs suffer from a certain degree of stagnation, but so do first-person shooters and stealth games.

While the tiny details that separate one JRPG from another doesn't seem that significant to me, I must be missing something, considering the love for games such as Persona 4.

Let's start from the beginning, which is easy because the beginning is also the present and the future. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest have been the "Head Games in Charge" of this particular genre since its inception. Has this top-billing led to stagnation for these series?

Some argue that all other genres have a similar "Head Game in Charge," and if those genres haven't stagnated, then why should I assume that JRPGs have?

First-person shooters have Halo, or more recently, Call of Duty; platformers have had Mario for many years, and football games have Madden. I'd argue that all of these series continue to innovate. This seems like a very compelling defense for JRPGs -- and of Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest in particular. But under closer scrutiny, it doesn't quite hold up.

The top FPS is always evolving. Wolfenstein, Doom, GoldenEye, Half-life, Halo, and Call of Duty have all been the No. 1 shooter. The fans of this genre are never happy for long, and this unwillingness to settle has led to games that are very different from one another.

Madden was in the same boat as the FPS for years. Challengers such as NFL GameDay and NFL 2K took the title of top football sim away, and Madden had to evolve to get it back. Until, of course, EA got tired of competing and out-spent the competition by gaining exclusive rights to the NFL game license. Many fans of the series admit that the lack of competition hurt the series for some time.

Slumping sales have seemed to reignite the fires of innovation at Madden developer EA Tiburon, and they've taken it upon themselves to make the series a titleholder once again.

Mario's situation is the most curious as it has, like Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest, always been above its peers. The difference is that Mario immediately established the precedent that each sequel would be drastically different from the last, and Nintendo have held to that standard.

Even when fans demand quicker releases of sequels, Nintendo doesn't cave in.

Taking this constant innovation into consideration, is there something that I'm missing about Japanese RPGs? Do the differences between job systems and dress systems amount to more than what I am seeing? They must -- please tell me that they do.

At the same time I can't help feeling that the fans actually don't want the games to change -- if Square Enix made the exact same game with a different story, I bet the fans would be happy. Which is fine for them, but it does hurt the genre.

Other developers have realized that other JRPGs can't compete, that they should try to emulate Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest. This is the absolute antithesis of a genre like the FPS, where the king must be conquered, and all imitators are panned as "clones."

However, I can see a defense when compared to Madden. One football game compared to the next is even more identical than any RPG compared to another RPG. When it comes to football, it's all about how the tiny details pan out. However, that still seems sad to me.

Football games are always the same, because football fans want the developers to accurately emulate the sport. Do JRPG fans want all the games to be the same, because they want their games to mimic FF and DQ?

Honestly, I think that I'm way off base here. I just haven't played enough JRPGs to gain an appreciation for the differences between FF7 and FF10. What I really want, from anyone still reading, is an explanation of the finer points of the genre.

I don't really understand fine wine, either, and perhaps this is the same thing.

Tags: FPS, RPG, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Madden, mario, Japanese role-playing games

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Chris "Cosmo" Ross

August 25, 2009

On the surface, yes, most RPG's are very similar. But they are usually very different. For one, the setting. You mentioned the difference between FFVII and FFX, the main thing being the setting. Also, the characters and storyline. The way the combat plays out, as well. There's a ton of differences, really, but at the core of the game you still feel like it's related somehow. I think it's the items, mainly. There are a ton of RPG's that are completely different then either Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, but I'll mention the one I'm currently playing: Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth. This game is truly different than any other RPG I've ever played, and yet it still is familiar because it features items and equipment and leveling up. I hope this at least somewhat helps.

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Lance Darnell

August 25, 2009

One of the first Nintendo games I ever got was Dragon Quest (Warrior). I got it through the Nintendo Power promotion that was giving away it and a strategy guide. I loved it, but I would never go back to it again. That being said I play every Dragon Quest game that comes out. I think it is a mixture of nostalgia and that they add just enough each time to keep it from becoming a complete repeat. But I have not really played a JRPG since 1994 - although I am 45 hours into FF7, which I am playing for the first time - so I am not an expert on the matter. And you may be off base with the JRPG comments, but your comments on FPS is DEAD ON!

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David Matos

August 25, 2009

@Cosmo-Valkyrie Profile:Lenneth is awesome! I want to buy a PSP again to play it for a second time. @Jeffery- You said it clearly in the article. You haven't played enough RPGs to pick out the differences, just like some can't pick out the difference in FPSs. While Cosmo stated more physical differences (Setting, characters), I like comparing the stuff under to hood in RPGs. How is the battle system? While most are turn based, many do that in different ways. Valkyrie profile allows your party to attack at the same time (almost in combination attacks) but then the enemy gets an attack. While FFs, each member gets a turn. Another difference could be the leveling system. Most games require more and more EXP to level up, while in FF8, 1000 exp leveled you up no matter what. Also there are differnt systems for abilites characters can use. Some characters are set like in Final Fantasy 9. Only one character can steal, a few can cast magic etc. But there are also job systems that allow the player toc hoose who gets to do what and which abilites each character has. If you are interested in scratching the surface of this genre, I recommend Chrono trigger for the DS (or SNES or PS if you can find it) This is argued as one of the best ever, it is not one of the harder ones and helped a lot of people get into the genre.

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Lance Darnell

August 25, 2009

@David - If I am just finishing FF7 should I move on to 8, or go right to 9? Is Paper Mario 2 considered a JRPG?

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Jeff Grubb

August 25, 2009

David, the stuff under the hood is exactly what I mean. Perhaps a metaphor is called for. It seems like you are saying that the difference between one rpg and another is like the difference between poker and euchre. You are playing with the same stuff, but the actual game is very different.

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David Matos

August 25, 2009

@Lance-Yes, however I will warn you. FF8's system is very different, not like any other FF. I love it but it throws a lot of people off guard. Don't let it get to you. FF8 is one of the best. Paper Mario 2 is fucking awesome, 'nuff said. @Jeffrey-Right, its like anything else. If you are not used to something similiar things look the same (All that rap music these kids listen to nowadays is all the same...) For JRPGs, same formulas and systems, implementation and execution is different. JRPGs aren't for everyone I will admit, but they can be a lot of fun if you give them a chance.

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Chris "Cosmo" Ross

August 25, 2009

@ David - Good point about under the hood stuff. Especially the combat system... Oh and I totally agree about FF8; it's easily my favorite Final Fantasy.

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Chris "Cosmo" Ross

August 25, 2009

@ David - Oh and this is my first time playing Valkyrie Profile and I'm completely blown away. Why haven't more games adopted this combat style? It's brilliant!

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Dan "Shoe" Hsu

August 25, 2009

I used to love JRPGs back in the pre-PS1 days, but working at EGM actually burned me out on them. Reviewing all those PS1 RPGs, long deadlines, etc... they all started blending together, and not I can't play them anymore. I still dig Western-style RPGs, though (just finally beat Fallout 3).

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David Matos

August 25, 2009

@Shoe-Something similiar happened to me a few years ago. One summer I played NOTHING but JRPGs for about 4 months straight. After that, I couldn't play them for about 2-3 years. This year I have really begun to enjoy them quite a bit and I have quite a few to catch up on since my hiatus. Shoe! Give it another go! Although Western RPGs are on the rise (Bioware....haha) so never before has there been so many good RPGs to play from both sides of the Pacific.

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Dan "Shoe" Hsu

August 25, 2009

@David: I dunno. It's also the dialogue and the campiness that don't do it for me anymore....

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Jason Wilson

August 25, 2009

@David Western RPGs on the rise? They've always been dominant -- remember, the root of Japanese RPGs are games like Wizardry, after all. It's just sad that so many console players immediately think "Japan" when the subject of RPGs come up.

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Jeff Grubb

August 25, 2009

Well, I am at work now and am trying to sneak this in. @David: What about the suggestion that the genre as a whole has been hurt by FF/DQ perpetually being at the top? For the record my favorite jrpg is Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga. Does that count?

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Lance Darnell

August 25, 2009

@Jeff - It can count if Paper Mario 2 counts!

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Jeff Grubb

August 25, 2009

@Jason @Dan: Yeah, that might be a whole new article. What Western RPGs are doing to stay fresh and contemporary compared to the East.

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David Matos

August 25, 2009

@Shoe- Haha, yea. Gotta love Japan! @Jason- yes that is true, I will admit that I have NEVER really been a PC gamer (Other than D2 and SC) and usually when i think of old western RPGs on the PC, nothing memorable (to me) comes to mind. I guess what I meant by "on the rise" is that consoles, especially now have always seemed to be more popular. So when JRPGs dominated consoles in the SNES, PS1 days, it was natural for most (not all) to associate RPG to Japan. However that is no longer to case therefore they are on the rise in that sense. @Jeffrey-I'm not sure how to answer that. Some of me says no it hasn't hurt it because if something ain't broke, don't fix it. However on the flip side because the formula has become so dominant that is probably has hurt other systems within that genre. A lot of great RPGs go unnoticed because they are made by smaller studios or try to change up the formula. So I uess like everything else there is good and bad in everything (Yes, EVERYTHING) The same would be for the examples you mentioned, Madden. Great football games, but they in essence killed off Tecmo Bowl, and the Sega series of sports games (they aren't around still, right?). Actually, now that Ithink about it, the future of RPGs looks good. Western RPGs are becoming better and get much more attention, and even more smaller JRPGs are getitng their own audience on the DS. If anything, I think the last few FFs (10, 10-2, 11, 12) were rather poor so it has oepned my eyes at least to some others. DQ will never go away, because Japan in crazy like that. Wow, this is kind of getitng long, so Jeffrey, try out some JRPGs, a few of the older ones, Chrono Trigger was still my initial recommendation and give them a chance. If you give them a fair chance and still don't like it, well you still tried.

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Toby Davis

August 25, 2009

@Jeffery try Shadow Hearts PS2.

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Jason Wilson

August 25, 2009

@David When i think of old western RPGs on the PC, nothing memorable (to me) comes to mind. Bard's Tale? Might and Magic? Wizardry? The AD&D Gold Box games? Heck, even in the 1990s, you've got Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape -- so many good Western RPGs.

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David Matos

August 25, 2009

@Jason- that's why I included the "(to me)" in my comment. I never said I wasn't biased. I have almost no exposure to PC games. I did try the first Fallout and liked that, but that is about it.

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Jason Wilson

August 26, 2009

@David If you get a chance, try some more Western RPGs; many are available for a fair price, and some are on Steam, Impulse, and Good Old Games. I like JRPGs as well, especially the Dragon Quest series. I find it charming -- and I still smile every time I see one of its smilin' slimes. FF9 is my favorite Final Fantasy; I really enjoyed the tale of the black mages. Etrian Odyssey is one of my favorite series of recent years. I also love strategy RPGs like Valkyria Chronicles and King's Bounty, and I get a kick out of action-RPGs, too. If I were an advocate, it wouldn't be for East vs. West or genre vs. genre -- it would be for RPGs, period. I want RPGs fans to try every kind, every flavor, from the first primitive RPGs on IBM clones to Dragon Age: Origins and Final Fantasy 13.

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David Matos

August 26, 2009

@Jason-I agree. in recent years I notice that there is a divergence among RPG fans between JRPGs and WRPGs. I never knew why you had to support/play/like only one. A lot of the older Western RPGs are on PC and I only have my laptop for school which is really not a gaming machine. I have played a lot ofrecent WRPGs and enjoyed them (Oblivion, Fallout 3 being the biggest ones). I am also dying to try Mass Effect. I only played a first two DQ games when they re-released them on Game Boy Colour and loved them, but never got around to playing the rest. Now I spend a lot of time on eBay trying to find good older games. I'll look into more of the DQ series.

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Jeff Grubb

August 27, 2009

I really want to try Persona 4, but I don't have a spare 100 hours to throw down for it.

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Reggie Carolipio

August 28, 2009

JRPGs come in all shapes and sizes, but respectfully disagree that because Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest head the list that the genre as a whole has stagnated. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, I'd wager, are seen as the band leaders because of their popularity among fans and the consistent ability to deliver what those fans want. But like a snowball, the hype surrounding subsequent releases always draws in even those RPGers that may never have played either series before who may find themselves liking what they see. But there are also quite a few that differentiate themselves enough from the flock through their mechanics such as Disgaea, Valkyrie Profile, Namco's Tales series (most recently, Vesperia with its older, and more cynical, protagonist which is somewhat rare to see in a JRPG), Radiata Stories, and the Persona series. The Tales series, in particular, doesn't emphasize so much its need to reinvent its basic combat system as it does in polishing it with every iteration, although I'd argue that it is the characters that are the real draw and which help it stand out from the rest of its peers (with the possible exception for Legendia...). Sega's Panzer Dragoon Saga, mixed RTS/RPG title, Valkyria Chronicles, and Overworks' Skies of Arcadia are other examples of stylishly different approaches that JRPGs have taken as well. It just depends on where you look. And most of these won't require 100 hours to play through, either. :)