Should Developers Listen to their Fans?

Sunglasses_at_night
Thursday, October 14, 2010
EDITOR'S NOTEfrom Aaron Thomas

Figuring out when to (and when not to) listen to fans has to be one of the most-difficult aspects of being a game developer. I don't know that there's one all-encompassing answer for this topic, but I think it's an interesting issue to discuss.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that, had the deafening sound of applause not erupted at that exact moment , there would have been an audible sigh of relief from the audience. Here we were, guests at the prestigious BAFTA headquarters, being given a lecture by a man most of the Internet, it would seem, wants dead.

Guy Cocker, editor at Gamespot UK, and our host for the evening, turned to his interviewee and smiled. 
 
“Who'd have thought we'd get through an entire Q+A session without a single mention of DMC?” 
 
I couldn't help but agree with him.
 
Announced at this year's Tokyo Games Show, the next entry in the Devil May Cry series has divided public opinion. An initial teaser trailer and a few meagre screenshots are all that have been released, but already there's the smell of boycott in the air. The criticism, as it always does in these situations, started with something major; Dante, people complained, is no longer Dante.

These people have a point. Gone is the white-haired male lead we once knew, replaced by a brunette imposter who seems to have stumbled across his namesake's wardrobe whilst looking for his sister's eye make-up. It didn't take long for the the witch hunt to pick apart every bit of the short clip. Apparently, Dante isn't allowed to smoke now, and according to a vocal group of people, a pre-rendered trailer has already exposed DMC's gameplay as a load of junk. 
 
A single aesthetic decision by Ninja Theory has earned it the wrath of the Internet. 
 
 
As the world settled down to watch Sony's 2010 E3 press conference, a similar controversy was brewing, one that would go an entirely different way. 
 
Infamous 2 isn't really anything like DMC. It's not a reboot for one, nor is it developed by a different studio than its predecessor. No one really had any reason to complain when its trailer faded to black in front of the world's games press, except for the fact that Cole -- the protagonist of both Infamous and its forthcoming sequel -– was, much like Dante, different.
 
Fans weren't happy. “Where's the old Cole?” they asked, the one they grew attached to throughout the course of the first game. What right did Sucker Punch, the developer of both games, have to change him? 

Faced with an "overwhelmingly negative" fan reaction, Sucker Punch retreated with their tails between their legs. They saw the negative press  their decision had received, and they went back on it, silently patting themselves on the back for being 'Oh so in touch with their fans.'
 
There's this lingering thought that still hangs in the air, though. Did fans dislike 'New Cole' because he was worse, or did they just dislike him because he was different?
 
Of course, in many respects a lack of change is sensible. If two analog sticks work well to control a first-person shooter, then why should a game break this rule for the sake of being different? 
 
The same could be said of other conventions. For example: Real life shotguns don't actually have very-limited range, but since that's what your audience will expect from your game then you'd be wise to make it that way -- or else they're going to have to spend time to learn your mechanics rather than simply enjoy them.
 
Then again, isn't variety the spice of life?
 
The Legend of Zelda is a series which has refused, to this day, to contain voiced characters. They'll whelp, gasp, and even sigh once in a while, but their only dialog is communicated through on-screen text. Is anyone going to seriously argue at this point that a fully voiced Zelda game would be made worse as a result? Or would it simply be different?

There's a vocal minority of gamers out there who hate with a passion the idea of change. It's these people who complained about new Dante, new Cole, and the fact that Sonic's eyes are green in Sonic the Hedgehog 4
 
Faced with this response, developers have two choices: They can have the courage to weather the storm and stick to the decisions that they have made, or they can crumple under the weight of a reaction by an audience who, let us not forget, haven't even played their work. 
 
London, like many other cities, is kept in a perpetual warmth by the thousands of motorists who plough through its streets at all hours of the day. It was this warmth which greeted me as I stepped out of the academy's doors into Piccadilly. I performed the three-tap ritual immediately, as one does when leaving any location. Thankfully phone, keys, and wallet could all be found in their correct pockets. 
 
When I looked up it wasn't the crowded pavement that met my gaze which surprised me, but the man standing on it. Tameem Antoniades, lead designer at Ninja Theory met my eye, and extended an arm not out of compassion one assumes, but out of a desire to bring to an end the awkward silence which had replaced the plain silence that had hung in the air not ten seconds previously. 

I'll admit now I couldn't help it. I should have turned into the 'suave freelancer', and thanked him for taking the time to do this talk. At the very least I should have become the adoring fan, praised him for Heavenly Sword, and told him how I couldn't wait to get a copy of Enslaved.
 
I instead assumed the snarky journalist persona, and without thinking asked, “So, how do you feel about the fan reaction to DMC?”
 
Tameen looked at me a moment and took a drag of his cigarette. Then without blinking, and without pausing to exhale the smoke from his mouth he said, “I don't care.”
 
And neither should any other developer. 
 
Problem? Report this post
JON X. PORTER'S SPONSOR
Comments (20)
Default_picture
October 13, 2010

Very nice, I completely agree. If a developer is willing to change something in a game simply because the community wants them to, then I really don't want to play that game.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes the community can be right. If a fan makes a valid point on how to make the design of a game better, then the team making the game should recognize it as valid criticism. In this case, the community is wrong. The new Dante is better :)

Default_picture
October 14, 2010

Very well written artical, but, i think your missing a couple points to this whole thing.

First of all, not all of the fans aren't the change hating, moronic ranters that you seem to pin us as. Some of us are actually rather intelligent, with legitiment arguments with weighted pros and cons on the discussion of the fandom in question, but i HIGHLY doubt you knew that.

Secondly, the games you threw up in compairison hardly helps your arguments. Sonic and InFamous belong to SEGA and SuckerPunch respectivly, and they have since they were ever thought up. Same with Zelda and their creators, Nintendo. Devil May Cry was CAPCOMs game, and NT are merely the surrogate developers, charged with "rebooting" the franchise. It is not THEIR series, they are just borrowing it. What i'm saying is, if it's yours, then you can do whatever the hell you want with it, whether that be caving into fan demands, doing something totally different with it, or whatever the case may be. If it's NOT yours, then it is your duty to treat it with respect and regard for both the original franchise and it's fans, because it's those fans that would most likely make up the just of the sales.

Which brings me to my thrid point... This is a REBOOT, not an entirly new IP. Good reboots are designed to pay homage to the original series. Take the upcoming SPLATTERHOUSE for example. It's designed different enough to be distiguishable from the original series, (with a more open world feel, more intagraded story, and a highly bulky hero), but it still recognizable to it's original fanbase. NT's DmC, presented thus far, looks like an entirly new IP, with the name Devil May Cry printed on it, and where main character calls himself "Dante". Not a single fan would have recognized it if those names weren't there... That is NOT good rebooting. Now, if this WERE a new IP, that was an attempt to play just like (or play better) than a certain other game (DMC or Bayonetta for example), i would have let that slide. But, because this IS a DMC game, it's just won't sit well with me. I'm not saying that they should change EVERYTHING that is the concept for this game, but change it enough so that it's at least recognizable. Change is fine in manageble doses, but drastic change is jarring, if not offensive. And NT's descision to drasticlly change DMC was both offensive and jarring, if not a little painful.

As for the idea that Developers shouldn't care for the fans, that's one hell of a crock. Fanbases pay out the ears for their franchises. We pay their profets. Treat us with some respect and courtousy, cause, we MAKE or BREAK the product they they are creating. If they don't, all they're gonna do is get alot of people pissed off, and they will only end up hurting themrselves.

Moral to "surrogate" developers, don't spit in our face, and we won't try to tear down your brick wall...

5211_100857553261324_100000112393199_12455_5449490_n
October 14, 2010

I'm interested to see what happens with DMC, I really am.

I think Blizzard needs to take a step back and start making games for themselves.  Any World of Warcraft player will tell you that they house the whiniest, most immature batshit retarded fanbase of any game company anywhere worldwide.  And Blizzard just keeps changing and bending over backwards for them (probably out of fear of being crushed underfoot if they do otherwise)... Patches and re-balances and re-patches etcetera infinity ad nauseam...

Hell, how many years ago did Blizzard have a playable demo of Diablo 3?  People said it was "too colorful" "not dark enough" and "terrible" and they, quite literally, went all the way back to square one, rebuilding the game from the ground up, not because the general fanbase was displeased with the progress, but because the voices of dissent ALWAYS carry the loudest.  And here we are, some years later, and they're *still* working on it.  I really want to find everyone that whined about something retarded like "colors" and punch them in the face repeatedly.

I understand there's a minority of players out there that DON'T use every waking moment to complain about the very thing they love and interact with the most, but at times, it really seems like that's all it is... a minority.

You will never, ever please everybody.  I find it admirable for a company to stick to its guns and produce THEIR vision of their products, bitchers and whiners be damned... I'm just not seeing anyone (outside of indie developments) doing it.  There's a certain level of artistic integrity to be upheld, I think... how long can you allow your fanbase to repeatedly rape it over and over again before you're left with nothing?

It's important to love and care for your fanbase.  It's another thing entirely to not retain any personal level of control over your intellectual property.

And it's CERTAINLY not kosher for people who have had zero experience playing a game, have not seen the actual game in action and have no idea what they're talking about start whining about how much they don't like the new direction.  You... have... no... idea... what... you're... talking... about.  Play it, THEN draw your conclusions.  

Bravo, Tameen.  Carry on.

Default_picture
October 14, 2010

@ Bryan Harper

But, you're missing the point. A) this is NOT Ninja Theory's personal IP, and B) This is a REBOOT. They were charged to reboot the Devil May Cry series, and to do a good reboot, like i said before, it needs to pay some sort of homage to the original series. A unrecognizable character in a completly different setting with a different atmosphere, setting, and plot are ingredients to create a brand new game, not a reboot. The least they could have done is called him "Tony (Redgrave)", then us fans would at least be a little more convinced that they've played the original series and know and understand the original DMC mythos, and thus, be at least giving us the adiquet impression that they might pull of a fair REBOOT to the fanchise.

If this Devil May Cry REBOOT fails, every single person who kept saying "The fans are wrong" "DRASTIC change is ok" or even "Developers should NEVER listen to their fans" will end up feeling rather silly, and probably watch how things unfold rather than try to tear down people who are genuinly concerned for the game in question.

If, however, this game turns out BETTER than, say Devil May Cry 3, then fans like myself would happily adimit we were wrong, and play NTs rendition of DMC.

If it sit's in the middle, like DMC2, it will still be a bad DMC game, and the fans will be correct anyway.

I'm willing to have my mind changed about this, but, so far, from the interviews, the trailer, screenshots, and the news about how they are gonna build this game, have done little to give me hope, but tonnes to dread into what's being done and make me try hard to speak up about the red flags that are starting to show up, ESPECIALLY with each interviews with Tameen and Alex...

Sunglasses_at_night
October 14, 2010

@Wrath

 

First off, I would kindly ask you not to make assumptions about what I do and do not know.

 

You bring up a point about ownership of the IP. Yes, of course you're right, Ninja Theory don't own the Devil May Cry name. However, they are the ones in charge of this DMC game, and they should have full creative control. 

 

If Capcom wanted the next DMC game to be exactly the same then they would have made it themselves. The IP holders have decided they want change and the new arbiters are happy to oblige.

 

You talk about paying homage as if they've taken the Devil May Cry franchise and made an RTS or something. It's STILL a third person action game. It's STILL got a gothic setting. For all intents and purposes this is still a Devil May Cry game. Other franchises have deviated a whole lot more with each entry in the series and have still retained what it is that earns them their franchise name. 

 

Think about Final Fantasy. Each game features a different setting, a different cast, and even different play mechanics, but because they retain the tone of the series it all fits together. 

 

If DMC is a bad game it'll be because it's a bad game on its own merits. It has shit-all to do with how different it is from the past games. If everyone thought drastic change was a bad thing then we'd still be playing Mario in 2D. 

Default_picture
October 14, 2010

@Jon Porter

Look, i realize that CAPCOM approached NT to "redesign" Devil May Cry, but they've also done that to a few games, to "westernize" their franchises. And, on top of that, very few of them worked out well, Name one decent CAPCOM game that was outsourced to a "western" developer, and made it a smash success, cause i can't. Maybe i haven't found one yet... Besides, WHO WOULDN'T BE HAPPY TO WORK FOR CAPCOM?

I was never talking about a total shift in game genre. I was talking about the way the developers are planning to go about in recreating a milestone that created the sub-genre for action games, such as, planning to use the Unreal 3 engine for the game, take every recognizable aspect of the original franchise and change it beyond recognition, and the apparent distaste for opinions from the ones that actually make or break the game, the fans. The teaser, the ideas that THEY want to do and have descided to do, presented an idea of sluggish combat compaired to previous DMC titles, in a grimey and dirty dystopian city, with a 70s-80s punk feel rather than the goth you think is present, a barely recognizable character that could only be identified after he says "My Name Is Dante", bland looking enemies, an "all purpose" single weapon, overly brutal (to the point of psychotic) attitude, and very little regard to the original lore of the series. NT, so far, may parade this game about like a Devil May Cry game, but it's shown little to prove that it's better than what was already made.

As for Final fantasy, don't tey that with me. Final Fantasy ALWAYS had different stories and characters from 1 to 13, so far, but that's because they started out with that. There was no prior series behind it. It is considered more of an anthology of tales, but it still kept to a tradition of "everything new" in terms of story, settings, and characters since Day 1.

I do agree that if this DmC is a bad game, it will be because of it's own merits, but that is actually rather inexcusable. There is an entire series behind it had had brilliant, if not stellar, gameplay, and likeable characters, so why, if it happens, couldn't DmC make a game with a different story all together with a somewhat recognizable protagonist, while still presenting the same stellar (or better) gameplay?

BTW, a shift from 2D to 3D isn't a drastic change. That's like saying shoes instead of sandles is a drastic change. 3D allows for more of an open world to explore, and more possibilities to make than just back, forth, up and down.

And, i don't know if you've noticed, but we still play 2D principled Mario games. the only difference is characters and objects are in three dimentions, while the over all mechanics of the side-scrolling extraviganza is in representation of a 2-dimentional design.

Default_picture
October 14, 2010

I don't have anything to add to this debate other than to say I agree with the article. (Article by the way, not artical) Also, if you want your opinions to be taken serisouly around here you need to play along with what Bitmob is, I.E. lose the handle, and use your real name. Just sayin.

Default_picture
October 14, 2010

I think the nuanced answer to this is 'yes, if you do so sanely.'

As a primary argument for this I present Mass Effect 2 vs Mass Effect (1). After ME1, the designers seriously looked at every single customer complaint, evaluated it in context, and came up with ME2, which is such an amazing improvement over ME1 that I can hardly overstate it. I played the game three times - compared to once for ME1, and once for Dragon Age: Origins. DA:O is particularly salient because it's a product from the same company. And the DA:O sequel is apparently going down the ME2 route, mostly from customer feedback, and as someone who beat both I can't disagree.

Sonic Team is a prime example of why the developer /should/ care what customers think lest you produce a decade of crappy games which may have sold well but eat at your soul and you're ashamed of.

Seriously, this isn't either/or. Rather, it's a balance between stupidly insular or stupidly Not Invented Here.

Default_picture
October 14, 2010

The situations of DMC and Infamous 2 are not the same.

DMC is a redesign. A reboot. Whatever you want to call it. Re-imagining the character is perfectly acceptable.

Infamous 2 is a continuation of a series. It would be like changing the actors for Star Wars or Lord of the Rings in the second or third movies. You would (most likely) feel a disconnect with those characters. It's a poor design choice.

Default_picture
October 14, 2010

@Matthew Antezana

You have to forgive me for the spelling mistake. I wrote the reply really late at night, and was fairly tired. As for the alias instead of my real name. I prefer using it to my real name. My real name sucks, and i'll only use it for IRL stuff.

@Ron Dippold

I agree with you on this. There has to be some kind of balance on these kinds of things between fans and developers. And it is my firm belief that DMC is one of those games where fans and developers should try to meet in the middle about this.

Sunglasses_at_night
October 14, 2010

@Ron Dippold

I think Mass Effect 2 is different in so far as Bioware went into it wanting to make a more refined, but very similar game to the original Mass Effect. With that in mind customer feedback aided them pretty nicely in deciding how to design many of the aspects of their game. 

With DMC however, Ninja Theory is making a new game. They're not looking to refine Devil May Cry 4, they're looking to produce something completely new. With that in mind they would, in my opinion, be unwise to listen to a group of people who haven't played their game. 

Also I'd like to thank everyone for commenting, as well as Aaron for front paging this. 

Default_picture
October 15, 2010

Should the developers listen to their fans?  Yes, to a certain degree.  I mean, developers create games mainly to SELL, and games sell if it pleases consumers -- i.e. fans, mostly.  Artistic vision is all well and good, but when did Capcom say they handed over Devil May Cry to Ninja Theory in the name of art?  Wasn't it because Capcom wanted the next DMC game to sell 5 million copies?  That's the bottomline of why Capcom wanted to do a reboot.

One way to prove my argument  wrong, of course, is if Ninja Theory, moved to share the absolutely BRILLIANT reboot of their take on 'DmC', will give the game away for FREE.

 

...and @Ron Dippold. 

Very well said. :)

Photo-1
October 15, 2010

Wow, what an in depth comment discussion. I'm going to keep it short and just give you and Tameen a slow clap. Clap. Clap. Clap. Thanks!

Bitmob_avatar
October 15, 2010

I feel like most of the meaningful conversation has already passed so I'll just chime in to say that I was disappointed when Sucker Punch pulled off the new design and stuck to the old one after all. To me that spells a major lack of guts, whereas Tameem earns all my respect by not caring. I'm one of the people that "hate" the new Dante and could go on and on about it.

A developer definitely should listen to their fans but ultimately make their decisions by themselves and not because some whiny fans said so. Their input should be the guiding advice, not a wish that needs to be fulfilled. I'm eager to see what comes of DmC.

Default_picture
October 16, 2010

There are definitely unreasonable requests out there - but just because somebody complains that Sonic's eye color is incorrect doesn't mean that same person is wrong about other, more serious issues surrounding that same game. Even unreasonable people can have reasonable complaints.

Default_picture
October 16, 2010

I think its good a developer sees the feedback their fans say, and takes it to heart. But they have to remember that many fans can be unreasonable, and not to take/listen/do whatever they say.

Default_picture
October 16, 2010

Developers have to understand something and that is this; when you create a game that acquires a large fan base such as DMC has over the years people become attached to the characters, storyline, game engine, etc.  Now if say way back years ago after the second game was done being a complete disappointment they decided maybe they should get some 'new blood' into the series then that would have been fine.  It would have been accepted better.  Why after four games of the same continuing story line they decide to hire someone new to 'reboot' the series?  I didn't know a reboot was needed to be honest with all of us ravenous fans wanting more.  

I can understand that same old, same old gets boring after so many games but don't completely disregard the basics that made the game in the first place.  Changing the fighting style and general outlook is fine but why the character so drastically?  I just don't get it.  

As for Tameen he shouldn't care because it isn't his series.  He is just employed to do a job and he is doing it as he deems fit but I have a sneaking suspicion that Capcom has done this to kill the series once and for all.   

Default_picture
October 16, 2010

Point of order: my complaint isn't change, my complaint is quality design. Don't really care about Dante, but Cole had a good design in the first. They want to change it? Sure thing - go for it. But the issue is that they changed him into Nathan Drake, and his design was generic even in the uncharted series. 

As for listening to fans - unless the title is being made specifically for fan-service (for instance, MvC3), then a developer has no obligation to listen to fan input. Or rather, they shouldn't listen to input from people JUST because they are fans. A person really liking a series does not in any way, shape, or form mean that they have anything useful to say. What devs should listen to is quality, well thought out advice and critiques. Sometimes these come from the press, other times they come from the fan community. But the issue isn't the source, it's the content. Content trumps. A person doesn't get special treatment just cause they've bought all the DMC games day one - that doesn't make their input any good. (I should specify that I am NOT talking about anyone in this thread in specific - the discussion has been heated, but good points on either side. I'm saying more in general.)

In the end, in a new installment of an old franchise, two things matter - A) if the game is good and B) if the game is a successful member of the franchise. Listening to fans doesn't really help with that. And, for the record, I don't think we've seen enough of DmC to tell whether either of these conditions are met or not. 

Default_picture
October 18, 2010

I think Henry Ford said it best: "If I’d asked my customers what they wanted, they’d have said a faster horse”. Don't get me wrong listening to your customers is not a bad thing you just need to know when.

Default_picture
October 22, 2010

I agree with Ambra Angelo and with most of whats been said but to drastically change a game thats been up and running for nine years is different from rebooting a game that is just on its sequel and isn't selling the way you want. As wrath said (not a quote) if your gonna reboot a game keep something recognizable about it, sure its a reboot or rather re-imagining of the franchise but at the very least don't disconnect the fans from something they've been attached to for almost a decade. And i believe that the fans should be listened to and their thoughts on the game should be considered, now if their complaining about a serious character change then find out why and come to a compromise or at least respectfully tell them that your disregarding what their saying.

The whole Cole thing it was a radical change, sucker punch tried to please some of the fans who complained that the old Cole was to cold-hearted and they felt no connection with him, so sucker punch reinvented Cole and the fans rejected him and sucker punch changed him back that was their decision they decided to do as their fan base asked in order to sell their game and get as much sells as they need.  

Now back to Devil May Cry. This is a reboot and they can feel free to design the character they way they choose and do all the tweaks they want but at the very least retain some type of essence of the previous games, i don,t mean story lines or bringing back old Dante, just giving something recognizable to the reboot. 

I haven't placed to much of an overall opinion on the game because i'm still in the dark about the final product. I cant say anything about if it does have reference to the older games, but from what i've seen there is none except the title and the characters name, and possibly the handguns.  

Now for Tameem to go so far as to say he doesn't care for the fans opinion is a bad decision. Sure he is just  rebooting the game and it isn't his responsibility to care for what the fans say, that doesn't mean you just say that and expect everything to get better. Have some respect for the fans even if you disregard their thoughts of the game.  

You must log in to post a comment. Please register if you do not have an account yet.