I'm a damn lucky gamer dude. My girlfriend will save my ass in Resident Evil 5, she'll click skeletons with me in Diablo 2, and she'll watch me play Burnout Paradise while marking cars off a strategy-guide checklist as I unlock them. It's a dream setup for me.
But this past week, one "uh-oh" almost caused it all to come crashing down.
Raychul was watching me play X-Men Origins: Wolverine with three sets of GameFAQs printouts and one marker in hand. She'd tell me where the next mutagen (for upgrading Wolvie) was hidden, where I could find the next (of 95) dog tag collectible, and if there was a specific Achievement I could get on the level I was on. (Yes, I realize this is a coldly efficient, imagination-less way of playing a game, but hey, my time is limited and those Achievements need achievin', especially for this self-admitted collectibles and Achievement whore -- a dangerously time-consuming combination.)
The "uh-oh"
As we finished the dog tag list, I hear that "uh-oh" from Raychul. We knew we missed a dog tag from much earlier in the game, but for some reason, we crossed all of them off list. And if you're a collectibles junkie like me, you know just how horrifying this discovery can be.
With no way of knowing for sure which tag we missed, we were screwed. If we wanted it, we'd have to play the entire game over from the start and methodically go through the list again to make sure we don't miss it.
That's not happening -- I just don't have the time. So now, even though I've completed Wolverine, "94 out of 95" will forever haunt me. The words "Devil's Brigade" will sit grayed out in my Achievements list, mocking me for months to come. This bothers me so much, I actually asked Dan Vondrak, project lead at developer Raven Software, for advice during an interview.
Lessons
I draw two conclusions out of this mess. Three, if you include "I'm a pathetic little man."
One, all games with collectibles need some sort of tracking system. Burnout Paradise tells you how many billboards, stunt jumps, etc. you've found out of how many are available in each neighborhood in Paradise City. Gears of War 2 does something similar, telling you which collectibles you're missing in each chapter and sub-chapter.
Wolverine does track other Achievement-relevant stats (like the different ways you've killed enemies) but that last dog tag? That's for me to figure out on my own. The nerve of this game!
Conclusion #2: As addicting as Achievements can be for gamers like me, they can easily, easily backfire and sour what should be an otherwise rewarding experience.
Then and now
In the olden days, when you beat a game, horray! You killed the bastard, you saved the chick, and you won the admiration of your nerd friends.
Nowadays, when I beat a game, I immediately go into "complete remaining Achievements" mode. That sense of accomplishment I should've gotten for reaching the end of an adventure is now delayed, reserved for when I've hit my 1000 Gamerscore.
I didn't just recently realize this problem; I remember beating The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth 2, only to feel this sense of emptiness because I screwed up the last chapter, robbing myself of a frivolous Achievement.
I love Achievements (and I'm not just talking about Xbox 360's -- I'm referring to the concept that you can find in a lot of different games and platforms now). I love the idea, I love getting them, and I love getting the little pop-up notification.
But I wish they never existed, too. I estimate I spend about 40% of my gaming time chasing after them --that's a lot! And I long for the days where killing the bastard was all the reward that I needed.
Who needs dog tag #95?
Sadly, I do.
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Comments (56)
Hehe, I love the idea of achievements too, but I loathe the collectible-based ones. When I first got my 360, I tried something along the lines of the mechanical process you and Raychul used to tackle Wolverine, but dammit if I didn't always miss one or two, too! So now I can't be bothered. I play a game, and if I do happen to get one of those collection achievements -- like finding all the audio diaries in Bioshock -- it's a happy accident.
And yikes, I shudder to see your Gamerscore. It took me nearly 3 years just to get to 10,000!
And yikes, I shudder to see your Gamerscore. It took me nearly 3 years just to get to 10,000!
Dan I could not agree with you more, I am EXACTLY the same way, and I've been shouting(without being heard I'm sure), for tracking systems for these things for awhile. It was done so well in the playstation 1 and N64 days it's stupid how developers dropped the ball since then. I love games like Kingdom Hearts(2 especially), Bully, and Okami for doing such a fantastic game at stat tracking so with the help of a guide you can get all that extra stuff. it's such a simple feature that doesn't get any attention at all. As for souring the experience, this is exactly what happened to me in GTA 4, those fucking pigeons were the death of me. About a month ago I gave up going for collectables in any game that doesn't give this support. Recently GTA: Chinatown Wars did an amazing job for the first time ever by marking the cameras you've already gotten on the map, and it's fucking genius. Even something as simple as naming the collectables, like the bobbleheads in Fallout 3, make this whole process so much easier (Although I did collect 314 skill books as well.) If I had to say the worst system ever, it would have to be Assassins Creed, Wolverine to you was Assassins Creed to me. Stupid flags.
2 comments:
My 360 died about three months ago, so I started playing some PS3, and I found the lack of any trophies or achievements liberating while playing MGS4.
You are very lucky! My Fiancee laughs at me whenever she sees a FAQ sheet, or an Oblivion map, or a Viva Pinata spreadsheet. I have to hide them!
My 360 died about three months ago, so I started playing some PS3, and I found the lack of any trophies or achievements liberating while playing MGS4.
I'm a damn lucky gamer dude.
You are very lucky! My Fiancee laughs at me whenever she sees a FAQ sheet, or an Oblivion map, or a Viva Pinata spreadsheet. I have to hide them!
You are very lucky! My Fiancee laughs at me whenever she sees a FAQ sheet, or an Oblivion map, or a Viva Pinata spreadsheet. I have to hide them!
Show her who's the nerd boss of the household!
Haha, that's every Achievement whore's worst nightmare. It happened to me once while looking for flags in Assasin's Creed, however in a fit of blind rage and insanity, I went back through my list, checking every location again
I find most achievements to be very arbitrary, so I don't chase after them unless I absolutely adore the game I'm playing (Bioshock, CoD4). Oh, and Dan, that was hardly a "sad ending" (via your Twitter). You finished the story with your girlfriend still in her supportive videogaming position.
I guess you have not tried to get all 1000 of 1000 for Marvel Ultimate Alliance then which is much harder IMO. Of course I have yet to touch this game.
There are 3 things I really despise about achievements:
1. I can beat a game sending the end boss to their destruction and get the girl, but when I look at the menu I’m told I only completed 40% of the game. If I play a game to completion regardless of whether or not I found every shard, package, crystal, or dog tag I should at least get credit for 70%. Maybe I didn’t like the game enough to want to try and kill 100 enemies with every gun in the game or find the one secret mysterious item that you can only get in that one part of the game only if you know where to look.
2. They can make you despise the very game you love. I have 910/1000 in Rockband 2. I had a blast with the game just playing songs and acting all goofy, but when I read through the achievement list and decided to go for it I became more and more angry at an otherwise great game as I went on. Midway through my second run of endless setlist to get the achievement for completing it continuously I failed a song and swore off ever doing it again. I had to take a long break from the game before I was able to go back to it which is sad as it’s a game I love.
3. Whatever happened to developers just dropping fun little easter eggs in the game and letting players find them on their own. I had a blast with MGS4 last year which had no achievements (or trophies). It was fun to just discover things without thinking some invisible internet person would look down on me for not doing everything in a game I loved. I beat the game 3 times in fact and got the Big Boss emblem because I wanted to, not because there were achievements telling me I had to.
Still I find myself playing games in ways I normally wouldn’t and not always for the better because the achievements tell me to. I would have gotten through Gears 2 a lot quicker and probably would have had more fun on the normal difficult setting but I had to go thinking about achievements and gamerscore and play on hardcore and possibly make it less fun for me because of it. Gamefaqing it also takes away from the experience a little. One of my favorite achievements I ever got was the Irony achievement in Bioshok when I my natural reaction to what I had just done in the game led me to do what I did to get the achievement and it was the coolest thing ever to see an achievement unlocked icon pop up when I did it. It would have bee far less awesome if I was told to do it by a faq.
1. I can beat a game sending the end boss to their destruction and get the girl, but when I look at the menu I’m told I only completed 40% of the game. If I play a game to completion regardless of whether or not I found every shard, package, crystal, or dog tag I should at least get credit for 70%. Maybe I didn’t like the game enough to want to try and kill 100 enemies with every gun in the game or find the one secret mysterious item that you can only get in that one part of the game only if you know where to look.
2. They can make you despise the very game you love. I have 910/1000 in Rockband 2. I had a blast with the game just playing songs and acting all goofy, but when I read through the achievement list and decided to go for it I became more and more angry at an otherwise great game as I went on. Midway through my second run of endless setlist to get the achievement for completing it continuously I failed a song and swore off ever doing it again. I had to take a long break from the game before I was able to go back to it which is sad as it’s a game I love.
3. Whatever happened to developers just dropping fun little easter eggs in the game and letting players find them on their own. I had a blast with MGS4 last year which had no achievements (or trophies). It was fun to just discover things without thinking some invisible internet person would look down on me for not doing everything in a game I loved. I beat the game 3 times in fact and got the Big Boss emblem because I wanted to, not because there were achievements telling me I had to.
Still I find myself playing games in ways I normally wouldn’t and not always for the better because the achievements tell me to. I would have gotten through Gears 2 a lot quicker and probably would have had more fun on the normal difficult setting but I had to go thinking about achievements and gamerscore and play on hardcore and possibly make it less fun for me because of it. Gamefaqing it also takes away from the experience a little. One of my favorite achievements I ever got was the Irony achievement in Bioshok when I my natural reaction to what I had just done in the game led me to do what I did to get the achievement and it was the coolest thing ever to see an achievement unlocked icon pop up when I did it. It would have bee far less awesome if I was told to do it by a faq.
I am absolutely the same way. In fact, I have found myself purposefully avoiding older games with a significant amount of Multiplayer achievements just because I know I'll never be able to get those.
I would love to see the 'tracking' system be taken a step further, where your friends can REALLY see what you're doing in a game. I'd love to be able to compare my friends' Fallout 3 characters to my own, or follow along with how far along someone is in upgrading all the weapons in Resident Evil 5, even if they aren't online at the time.
I suppose it stems from my competitive nature to be able to see how close I am to doing something before someone else does, but I really, really hope Microsoft evolves Xbox Live to have that kind of transparency for the next system.
I agree with Dimon Hunter, when I heard 'sad ending' I expected it to end with you and your girlfriend being in a huge fight over whose fault it was that you'd missed that one collectible.
For the record, I'd totally go through the game again. I played Assassin's Creed through a _third_ time just to get that 'conversationalist' achievement.
I would love to see the 'tracking' system be taken a step further, where your friends can REALLY see what you're doing in a game. I'd love to be able to compare my friends' Fallout 3 characters to my own, or follow along with how far along someone is in upgrading all the weapons in Resident Evil 5, even if they aren't online at the time.
I suppose it stems from my competitive nature to be able to see how close I am to doing something before someone else does, but I really, really hope Microsoft evolves Xbox Live to have that kind of transparency for the next system.
I agree with Dimon Hunter, when I heard 'sad ending' I expected it to end with you and your girlfriend being in a huge fight over whose fault it was that you'd missed that one collectible.
For the record, I'd totally go through the game again. I played Assassin's Creed through a _third_ time just to get that 'conversationalist' achievement.
To me, achievements are just little niceties in the game to say "hey good job" when something cool--and a lot of the time, mundane--happens. They were amusing in Matt Hazard, especially the ones where it's written like the character is addressing you. Back before the days of achievements and trophies I didn't bother to collect all the special items in a game, and I still don't today. When I played through Assassin's Creed and I saw a flag I picked it up, but I never made a point to collect them all. I think tedious things like that, even baited by gamerscore, are silly.
The one thing that I hate though, are achievements with oddly numbered gamerscore awards. I want my gamerscore to have a nice 0 or 5 at the end of it, none of this 7 or 3 nonsense. A few weeks ago I started playing Luxor 2 from the Xbox Arcade disc. And now, I must get all the achievements to get my score back to normal. Thankfully, it's a fun game.
The one thing that I hate though, are achievements with oddly numbered gamerscore awards. I want my gamerscore to have a nice 0 or 5 at the end of it, none of this 7 or 3 nonsense. A few weeks ago I started playing Luxor 2 from the Xbox Arcade disc. And now, I must get all the achievements to get my score back to normal. Thankfully, it's a fun game.
The best achievements I ever got were 1000 for beating King Kong. That was sweet. And I went nuts collecting music for Super Smash Brawl. I had to get Calling to the night from MGS!
@Alejandro: Here's the Flickr page of the guy who made it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/r...559889670/
No high res option available, but maybe you could email him and ask nicely.
No high res option available, but maybe you could email him and ask nicely.
I started to collect the 300 glowing orbs in Crackdown and realized that I was about to collect 300 glowing orbs in Crackdown. That's when I stopped.
Wow you really nailed it. I completely know how you feel. I am really bad with achievements. But I love the feeling I get from getting them and also when people look at my score and say "Holy Sh!t." Very good feeling. Glad to relate.
Man, I'm like the only one of my friends that cares about achievements. I despise multiplayer achievement to the point that it detracts from my multlplayer experience. I had to tell myself "Only care about single player achievements." for months. Thankfully after some careful rewiring of my brain, SP achievements are all I go for... ... mostly.
I had a similar experience with Grand Theft Auto IV, Shoe. I've never been quite the achievement whore as other players, but something about GTA IV really grabbed me in a way that I needed to get all those damn birds!
It wasn't just 100 hidden packages like the previous games, but 200 "flying rats." I looked up videos, FAQs, and checked off every bird. I got to the end and was missing two of them. Two!
My heart broke and I have yet to go back and get those few, fluttering pigeons that haunt my dreams 'til this day
It wasn't just 100 hidden packages like the previous games, but 200 "flying rats." I looked up videos, FAQs, and checked off every bird. I got to the end and was missing two of them. Two!
My heart broke and I have yet to go back and get those few, fluttering pigeons that haunt my dreams 'til this day
As much as I love achievements (I'm sitting on a little over 120K in points as of now), collectible ones are usually really annoying. Tracking down all the cats in Superman Returns and postcards in Cars were some of my least favorite moments as a gamer. I still don't see how my friends have had the patience to hunt collect all the flags in Assassin's Creed. Tracking systems would definitely make these sadistic tasks less of a hassle.
I did the exact same thing with Gears 1 tags, if I recall correctly I went through almost my entire list again.
It ended up being the one that is pointed out to you as an objective and that one just happened to be the one I skipped over because "oh that one's too obvious, I know we got that one."
My methodical tolerance breaks down at about 50 collectibles depending on how much time it takes to get each one. Past that, I either have to hope they're obvious, write off the achievement, or spend waaaay too much time on it (Crackdown orbs come to mind). Which is why it's such a relief when games have thorough sub-achievement type tracking.
Your intro did get me hooked, but I thought for sure your girlfriend would dump you by the end
It ended up being the one that is pointed out to you as an objective and that one just happened to be the one I skipped over because "oh that one's too obvious, I know we got that one."
My methodical tolerance breaks down at about 50 collectibles depending on how much time it takes to get each one. Past that, I either have to hope they're obvious, write off the achievement, or spend waaaay too much time on it (Crackdown orbs come to mind). Which is why it's such a relief when games have thorough sub-achievement type tracking.
Your intro did get me hooked, but I thought for sure your girlfriend would dump you by the end
Wow, that's some very hardcore achievement whorin' Shoe. Do your friends need to stage an intervention?
I too have a kick-ass girlfriend Shoe, my partner in crime. We had our own collectable nightmare. Ours involved pigeons though... pistols, cops, and 200 of those stupid pigeons. Messy!
sad, very sad. microsoft has ruined gaming with achievements. well, maybe not ruined, but i sometimes think they have taken the fun out of it for some people. but i guess if your having fun hunting down dogtags in a wolverine game that is questionably good, then have at it. but dont let it haunt you...
microsoft has ruined gaming with achievements
I agree with this to a certain extent. I'm a little ashamed to admit that I do actually consult a game's achievement list before I play it, just so I have an idea what I'm in for if I decide I want to go 100%. Games with a lot of MP achievements tend to get skipped over because of it. It has made me almost certainly buy the 360 version of a multi-platform title, though.
having 499 out of 500 agility orbs in Crackdown still haunts me to this day especially since I somehow managed to find all of the hidden orbs...that 50 point achievement should be so insignificant to my 81,000 gamerscore but that one orb and the sound it makes always cross my mind
I've never really understood the whole achievements thing. The idea is interesting, because you can show off difficult feats you've accomplished to friends, but I never really felt compelled to earn them. I always finish my games, but I never take the time to go after achievements. Hell, I never really even look at what they are.
I like achievements like the mile high club achievement in CoD4... the amount of times I had to restart the level reminded of way back when I tried over and over to get the invincibilty cheat in Goldeneye... altough getting the cheat was admittedly much harder.
When I complete a game, that game is done, and if those bloody files/cogs/tags wanted me to pick them up they should have placed themselves on my explosive trail of joystruction!
I love fun achievements, ones that ding to say "You just did something awesome", but anything that tries to turn games into work can stay behind its false-paneled air duct.
I love fun achievements, ones that ding to say "You just did something awesome", but anything that tries to turn games into work can stay behind its false-paneled air duct.
I'm always surprised to hear people play games this way. I mean it's cool, whatever you have fun with. Collecting everything just sounds like work to me.
I only own the 2 handhelds and a wii since having a kid has put a damper on any big new purchases for this generation. Therefore I haven't experienced the joy/disgust of achievement gathering.
Phew. I'm partly glad I didn't get into this situation too badly. I've sometimes been wanting to collect all the achievements or trophys and I closely went all the way with Fable 2 and Fallout 3.
Luckily, my wife will jolt me back to reality and convince me that it's not worth it and there's so many other games I need to play.
Luckily, my wife will jolt me back to reality and convince me that it's not worth it and there's so many other games I need to play.
Dude, this has happened to me more times than I can count. Most recently, it happened in the "Collect 100 Steel Ingots" in The Pitt. I wandered about for about an hour in the Steelyard, trying to palcate my soul-less addiction. Every five minutes, I would try to quit, but couldn't bring myself to do so. This addiction will come back to you as well, Shoe. It may be within the week, within the month, or within the year. Redgardless of the timeframe, the vampire bitch that is the Achievement Whore will claim what you have sold to her. Or you can forget about it like a human being. Or can you?
I think developers should make use of 0-point achievements for stuff like that. That way you can still show off if you get it, but you don't 'need' to do it to get full gamerscore.
My Gamerscore isn't all that impressive despite my addiction: Just over 25K. I have a few games in the 900-1200 range, though. Like COD4, BioShock, Marvel Ultimate Alliance...
How many 1000/1000s have you got then Shoe? And what's your Gamerscore?
I have 1150/1250.
I guess you have not tried to get all 1000 of 1000 for Marvel Ultimate Alliance then which is much harder IMO.
Oh, I certainly wasn't happy with my girlfriend. I don't think she'll read this, so I think I can sneak this in here: I'm 99% sure it's her fault (even though I've been marking the tags off, too). Well, OK, maybe 50%. But man, she's been so cool about it, I can't really get mad at her for something like that.
I agree with Dimon Hunter, when I heard 'sad ending' I expected it to end with you and your girlfriend being in a huge fight over whose fault it was that you'd missed that one collectible.
That's an impossible task, Aaron! I thought about it, too, but I knew it'd be hell keeping track, and if I missed one, I'd never find it ever. It'd be worse than Wolverine, which is at least linear.
I started to collect the 300 glowing orbs in Crackdown and realized that I was about to collect 300 glowing orbs in Crackdown. That's when I stopped.
That sucks so bad. I feel your pain. I started going after those, but then gave up pretty early. Too much work.
It wasn't just 100 hidden packages like the previous games, but 200 "flying rats." I looked up videos, FAQs, and checked off every bird. I got to the end and was missing two of them. Two!
My heart broke and I have yet to go back and get those few, fluttering pigeons that haunt my dreams 'til this day smilies/sad.gif
I do EXACTLY the same, on all points.
I'm a little ashamed to admit that I do actually consult a game's achievement list before I play it, just so I have an idea what I'm in for if I decide I want to go 100%. Games with a lot of MP achievements tend to get skipped over because of it. It has made me almost certainly buy the 360 version of a multi-platform title, though.
Oh man, screw that Achievement. Makes me so mad! It's the only one I couldn't get in COD4. I gave up after 3 or so hours of trying.
I like achievements like the mile high club achievement in CoD4... the amount of times I had to restart the level reminded of way back when I tried over and over to get the invincibility cheat in Goldeneye... although getting the cheat was admittedly much harder.
Heh, thanks Toby!
I sent this to the Raven CM and he enjoyed reading your story. Now go back and get that last one
Cool, can't wait to read it. Thanks for the link.
Gamasutra has an interesting article on this very subject today.
Oh 1 more thing a bunch of us are going to play this after E3 if you want to try and get the 4 player co-op if you have not gotten it all read or the 100 arcade missions.
Although I'm LTTP with this, I must concur that you are definitely a lucky dude to have Raychul be the equivalent of a gaming wingman. 95% of my female friends see my massive video game and anime collection and just shake their heads.
Toby: I may be up for that! Will you remind me via letters@bitmob.com sometime after E3? Attn: Shoe in the subject.
Haha, I feel your pain. The only difference is I have far to much extra time on my hands which would have me starting over from the go and searching each and every spot until I snagged that last precious one.
Also the Crackdown orbs.. man the last five were a bitch and I got the last one on complete LUCK. Was so happy when I got that, and this was before they patched the game with the update to see and hear them from further away.
Also the Crackdown orbs.. man the last five were a bitch and I got the last one on complete LUCK. Was so happy when I got that, and this was before they patched the game with the update to see and hear them from further away.
I know exactly which dog tag your missing Shoe.
On Alkalai Lake level, after you break out and are running from the Helicopter, you eventually run from the chopper underneath the bridge. You have to jump from platform to platform. On the second set of platforms, get to the middle one and jump down towards the camera and the dog tag is right their.
I know this because I used the same guide as you from gamefaqs and got stuck at 94 out of 95. Found the last one by luck on my second playthrough on hard.
On Alkalai Lake level, after you break out and are running from the Helicopter, you eventually run from the chopper underneath the bridge. You have to jump from platform to platform. On the second set of platforms, get to the middle one and jump down towards the camera and the dog tag is right their.
I know this because I used the same guide as you from gamefaqs and got stuck at 94 out of 95. Found the last one by luck on my second playthrough on hard.
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