Hilary Goldstein is wrong about games not being art

Andrewh
Monday, April 30, 2012
EDITOR'S NOTEfrom Rob Savillo

I'm glad Andrew wrote this. He's put to words exactly what I was thinking while reading Mr. Goldstein's article last night. Quite honestly, I'm amazed that we're still having this "debate." Games are art. Get over it.

Yesterday, Hilary Goldstein (former editor-in-chief of gaming site IGN, one of the most popular on the Internet) posted an article on GamesBeat, of which Bitmob is a part. I disagree with his article. In fact, I disagree with it vehemently. It is ill-informed, unconsidered, and simply will not do.

The article, on the whole, is confused about its own purposes. First, it is titled, “5 good reasons games are not art”; however, in its second paragraph, Mr. Goldstein states that the thesis is: “It doesn’t matter whether or not games are art.”
 
This is a minor irregularity, but quite important. So which is it? Are video games not art? Or are they art, and that fact doesn’t matter?

It is hard to suppress one’s exasperation with his reasoning as he launches his first of five arguments.
 
 
He immediately dismisses the very concept of art as "bullshit." What use is an argument regarding games as art when it is quite evident that the arguer is unwilling to debate art on its own definition and its own importance?
 
If one were to do that, the idea that video games are art is quite besides the point. If art is bullshit, we have a lot more pressing issues than video games. Some 20,000 years of human activity need a serious evaluation.

Thankfully, Mr. Goldstein makes no convincing points in this regard. He demonstrates his own biases by refusing to acknowledge that art even has an audience. He cites that all art is defined by an elite few and the millions of sheep who credit their opinions. Bizarrely, he defines this non-audience as a collection of consumers. Neither of these statements is true.
 
If he believes his first point, he has never seriously thought about art. If he believes his second point, he is working with an even more incorrect definition of art than previously thought. To consider an audience as consumers inherently suggests that art is a product of a capitalist system -- a faulty assumption on very many levels.

These arguments preemptively discredit his next point: that games “go beyond art.” Again, he has pegged the definition of art at some point where, as far as I know, no one else has placed it. He refuses to acknowledge that all artistic mediums have their own rules, standards, and exceptions.
 
Essentially, he argues that video games are better than art because they are different, lumping together dance, the novel, and architecture as well as every other artistic medium. These are all as different from each other as they are from video games. The differences in form have little bearing on whether a medium can produce art.

His next point is one that I doubt needs making. He’s made a false analogy between sports and video games without providing any sort of evidence. That is not to say that they are dissimilar. They share many defining elements of the concept of “game”; however, to say that sports aren’t art so video games are not art is to artificially limit the scope and potential of video games.
 
Sports are designed to be a cohesive set of rules played by elite athletes in a finite (and quite constrained) physical space during a finite (and constrained) period of time. Video games need not be any of these things.

Mr. Goldstein’s next argument, that video games are for ordinary people, is another fallacy. Last I checked, novels, architecture, music, theatre, and film were all accessible and enjoyed by ordinary people. Quite often, in fact. Again, Mr. Goldstein proffers a bizarre definition of art: “that which is enjoyed by snobs.” By extension, he argues that video games are not art because they are not made for snobs.

Please let that statment sink in.

His final reason is not an argument at all: “It doesn’t matter that games are art because you shouldn’t care that games are art.” This is one of the most basic of logical fallacies.

It is also an unhealthy stance, particularly for Mr. Goldstein. While stating that it shouldn’t matter what someone else thinks about games, he negates wholly all conversations anyone can have about the medium -- as well as his own career as a commentator on video games.

Fortunately, I will refuse to cede Mr. Goldstein his point. I, in fact, care what he says about games. I hope it keeps him employed.

Not that he actually believes the point he has made. Immediately after stating that it doesn’t matter what others think about games he writes: “What matters is how you experience, enjoy, and share games with others in the gaming community.” So...it does matter what others think?

He finishes off his article stating that video games provide nothing but a personal relationship with the player. This is exactly what art is: It is the relationship between material culture and the audience.

Mr. Goldstein was fully unprepared to write this article. He argues using an incorrect and incomplete definition of art, mischaracterizes those who do enjoy art, mistakenly lumps all other forms of art together, and falsely claims that video games cannot possibly fit. In a coup de grace, he makes a series of statements which, if followed to their logical end, state that he shouldn’t be writing the article in the first place.

On this point, I most definitely agree with him.
 
Problem? Report this post
ANDREW HISCOCK'S SPONSOR
Comments (29)
59208264_l
April 29, 2012

"Well, that's just like, your opinion man"

Andrewh
April 29, 2012

I hope I demonstrated that some of the issues with the article were more than just a fella's opinion, haha.

59208264_l
April 29, 2012

Oh Andrew your article is great.

I was merely commenting on this vacuum of arguments people like Goldstein make. Ultimately art is best judged in hindsight and not art can nor should be "good art."

Default_picture
April 30, 2012

You forgot another reason why his argument is wrong: "His name is Hilary."

Okay, now that the obvious joke is out of the way...

Are we REALLY still fighting this fight? Seriously?

The only argument I can as closely compare this one too are the old 'console wars' debate of my childhood, fought in the trenches that was my junior high school.

It doesn't matter what side is right. It's all subjective. Which, that very notion in and of itself is what defines art as such. Not to throw any 'eye of the beholder' cliches at anyone else, but art is and always has been subjective. 

I think if we asked Warhol about the artistic integrity of current age video games, he would find a kindred spirit in the very genre of pop art that he worked in. Much like gaming, pop art wasn't accepted as art initially either. The most famous example being a submission in the 1930s at a New York art exposition that was a public urinal that had been mounted and labeled as an art submission.

Just the fact that we have to argue if gaming is art makes it so. 

PS: Christ, that guy was the editor of IGN? I mean, I know IGN was god-awful, but...Wow. 

Some people just don't need access to a keyboard and an audience. 

Andrewh
April 30, 2012

With a name like Hiscock, I refuse ever to comment on another man's name. Ha!

Games as art is kind of like the abortion debate in Canada. No matter how long ago we figured it all out (yep, abortions are totally legal and okay), people refuse to let the debate die. Until recently, that is, when a conservative back-bencher in parliament tried to open up the debate *again*. Fortunately, our prime minister (and the conservative party leader) and the conservation party whip (an offical role within Canadian politics), immediately dismissed the idea, to their credit.

Eventually, I suspect, we'll get to that point in video games.

Default_picture
April 30, 2012

Could be worse...Your last and his first name could be someones name.

Canada had an abortion debate?

(Not to sound like the ignorant American when it comes to what's going on in the superior country in the attic. To be fair, everything I know about Canada I've learned from Degrassi, Kevin Smith, and a girl I used to raid with in WoW.)

I can only assume that people who keep bringing it up do so "for teh lulz."

I almost thought Hilary's article was a satire, at first. A satire of an article nobody wanted to read in the first place.

 

Andrewh
April 30, 2012

To take you up on your final point, I think everyone should say what they need to say at every opportunity that they have to say it. If not, we squander our most basic democratic right of free speech. Aces to Mr. Goldstein for getting out there and saying what he thought needed to be said. I am thankfully he did, because I had an awful fun time thinking about the points and solidfying some of my own ideas on the subject.

That said, were I an editor at VentureBeat, I would have politely returned the article to the author and stated "this is poorly argued, and you should develop this article a good bit more before publication."

Andrewh
April 30, 2012

Abortion is a topic with some amount of history in Canada: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgentaler

He was one of our earliest abortion advocates, and he ended up as a member of the Order of Canada and a TV Movie called Choice. Pretty neat stuff.

Default_picture
April 30, 2012

Truer words...But, I have to ask: What on Earth made him think that what he said needed to be said in the first place? What other countless number of online writers haven't already made both excellent and poor arguments, for and against the subject?

I'm all for free speech, but as a Communications graduate, I just have to shake my head when his opening salvo is "art is bullshit and consumerism." My advanced public speaking teacher would have nailed his balls to the wall.

So to speak.

I agree completely with all of your sentiments, and can relate to being glad that there are some people that alley-oop the proverbial ball so well to us, sometimes. I enjoyed the article, a lot. It's the first thing I've read on here in months. So, thank you. =P

Default_picture
April 30, 2012

PPS: You know that he was flying by the seat of his pants with that article when he felt a need to delve into the comments of his post and attack people/defend his stupid, stupid arguments. 

Default_picture
April 30, 2012

I did not read the original article, but I agree with you. The main problem here is that the guy apparently doesn't understand what art is--what it's for, what it is meant to do, and what we, as people and/or as consumers, get out of it. I think it is important for us to think of games as art, and to help others believe this too, because then they can see games (whether they play them or not) as something creative and expressive and worthy of protection--something that leaves a legacy. And this also recognizes that video games evoke emotional responses, create dialogue, that they are part of the human experience. That, to me, is what art is about, and video games absolutely fall into that decription. Frankly, I feel that Hilary's article, the way you've represented it, does a disservice to the gaming community because it makes us look like ignorant kids who just need to grow up. Thank you for responding to that drivel in a thoughtful way.

Default_picture
April 30, 2012

I think that is why art and those associated with it get a bad rep: Those who are laymen on the subject feel that pretentiousness and over-analyization on the part of those that are schooled in the genre keep them from having an opinion. Those that are schooled in art look down upon those not involved because they don't have an eye for the details (supposedly.)

My senior year of college, I took an art history course to fill a history requirement. It was a lecture hall course with 200 students that met once a week. On the first day, the TAs took turns giving speeches about how if anyone was there to just 'fill a credit', then they should leave because they would never understand what it means to truely study art. Furthermore, they went on to threaten the class by saying they would make the course as hard as possible.

I later found out that this was done on purpose, passed down from the professor of the course. The TAs were in a contest to see how many students each one could get to drop out. 

I went on a tangent, and for that, I'm sorry. But, I guess I can see another side of this argument now, despite how poorly Hilary put it. Maybe gamers don't want their medium associated with art. Maybe they think that it will ruin it by associated of the cliches involved with those in the art community.

Hard to tell. Don't listen to me though, I'm just drinking coffee and spitting in the wind. =P

Andrewh
April 30, 2012

I don't think it was a disservice necessarily. I do wish he had made it more clear where he is coming from.

For example, and I don't know if this is the case, but if one were to only play Call of Duty, Gears of War, God of War, etc etc, I could see them making a case that video games are not art, in such a way that a reader who is only familiar with Harlequin romance novels could not imagine the novel being an artistic medium.

I play these games, and they are totally 100% worth while, but I wouldn't get myself into any sort games as art debate citing them as examples. Not that he did, mind you, but I get the sense that this is where he is coming from.  

30028_10150166634715182_701805181_12295430_2588182_n
April 30, 2012

I enjoyed reading your article. Did not know what to expect at first but was very pleasantly surprised. I think it's one thing to hear Roger Ebert talk about something he doesn't understand and quite another when someone from the industry voices an opinion on the merits of video games as a form of art. I'll always be of the opinion that games are art. From the small ones to the AAA ones because it's a personal definition we attribute to it. Someone who only reads Harlequin romance novels could very well believe them to be art. Are they less entitled to their definition because they've never picked up Frank Herbert, Sylvia Plath, Dostoevsky? Becoming elitist is a problem. Art, to me, is something that moves the soul and we each feel differently. So I can understand how some will want to perceive games as more, less or not art. However, I can see why you felt the need to respond to Mr Goldstein's article. 

Andrewh
May 01, 2012

Ebert's actually backed off his original comments slightly, so that's a plus.

I kind of don't think being elitist is a major issue. It's annoying to some, but to other "elitist and pretentious" may appear as "experienced, informed, and thoughtful." I suppose it depends on where your seat is in the stadium.

Jamespic4
April 30, 2012

Did you read the bit at the end?

"5 Good Reasons is a GamesBeat opinion series from Hilary Goldstein. Each month, he takes a controversial stance on a topic important to gamers."

He freely admits that his articles are pointless, contrarian bullshit. That statment indicates that he may not even believe what he's written. He's adopted this stance solely because he's decided it's contrary to mainstream thought.

Andrewh
April 30, 2012

I did note at least one instance where I suspect he doesn't believe in what he has suggested, as he immediately contradicts it (or at least puts up an artificial barrier between people who like art and the gaming community who apparently deserve games more... or something).

Playing devil's advocate is a healthy exercise, but I don't think he came near achieving that effect. A good devil's advocate is able to question his own beliefs, provide shades of grey, and push forward the debate in a constructive way. 

59208264_l
May 03, 2012

I didn't want to point it out, but dude has a history of saying and endorsing some pretty deplorable things [if you listened to the old Game Scoop podcast].

He's had a history of writing some sensational stuff and have it come off as "just for the clicks." It'll be interesting to see if he develops as a better writer, but this all comes off as:

I left a big site. I need people to notice me. I'll ruffle feathers by writing about a topic that is low-hanging fruit.

Sexy_beast
April 30, 2012

As an art graduate, I can say that this tired discussion of whether or not games are art is just as prevalent as the "What is art?" question within the general art community. "Art" has become this ehtereal term that supposedly adds validity to whatever is connected to it. Hipster cunts buy a camera and call themselves "artists" because it makes them sound important; gamers call their toys "art" because it makes their hobby seem more sophisticated and dignified than other non-gamers might percieve it as otherwise.

While I disagree with Goldstein's notion that art is "bullshit," and think that your 20,000-year-evaluation counter is absolutely fuckin' brilliant, I do agree with his proposal that videogames being considered art wouldn't change a thing.

If tomorrow, everyone on Earth miraculously agreed that videogames were among the admirable essence of baroque paintings and classical music, we'd still be blowing the living fuck out of zombies and gawking at titty physics. The end result of any medium relies on the mind of the creator, not the reputation of that medium.

While I come from an artistic background and plainly understand the merit, beauty and significance that art holds within the history of world cultures, I'd much rather tell this entire industry to "shut the fuck up" so we can just get to making good games...not respected ones.

Waahhninja
April 30, 2012

"If tomorrow, everyone on Earth miraculously agreed that videogames were among the admirable essence of baroque paintings and classical music, we'd still be blowing the living fuck out of zombies and gawking at titty physics."

Love this.

Andrewh
May 01, 2012

Claiming games as art indeed doesn't change the games. However, it can influence how we engage them, and it can help guide and define our conversations about them. Particularly when most writing about games is so devoid of actual meaning, it is, in the least, preferable to open the medium to a wider discourse. 

Robsavillo
May 02, 2012

Ryan, that's a false dichotomy you've set up there. Zombies and titty physics aren't inherently less art than baroque paintings and classical music.

Andrew's right in this regard: It's about how you approach discussing those aspects of games that would change. If we agree that games are art, and therefore, worthy of analysis, we can change the discourse surrounding games into something that goes beyond mere product reviewing.

Sexy_beast
May 03, 2012

I never implied they weren't. My very point was that this "art" shit is meaningless, and whatever this industry is doing now wouldn't change if some worldwide consensus was reached that the medium is artistic.

Things are analyzed all the time, whether or not they're considered "art." People all around the web do it constantly. Did they need this supposed art bell to ring to do so? No.

To imply that the title of "art" is required for any avenue to reach its true potential is to imply that skill alone is governed by that recognition ... it isn't. The term "art" is pointless, and good and bad products exist whether or not that term is at all attached to them.

The people that have any real impact on this medium have made up their minds with regards to this art nonsense a long time ago. It's time this topic dies a very sudden and permanent death.

Default_picture
April 30, 2012

architecture is an art.  If you don't think so go to google images now and look up Frank Lloyd Wright's falling water.  This is to say something constructed can be art.  Video games are built up pixel by pixel, polygon by polygon.  So what if you control motions and what happens, there is a force that controls the motion of the water running through Frank Lloyd Wright's materpiece too.

Andrewh
May 01, 2012

Agreed, and it perhaps approaches video games in terms of engaging the audience in an interactive way.

100media_imag0065
April 30, 2012

One of the best damn articles I've read on Bitmob since it began. Well done.

Andrewh
May 01, 2012

Thank you. That means a lot coming from one of the site's most thoughtful commentators. 

Lolface
May 01, 2012

Is games as art still a controversial issue? I thought that the majority opinion amongsts gamers was that games are in fact, art. Didn't the Simthsonian do an exhibit of games? Wasn't that supposed to kill the whole argument?

Andrewh
May 01, 2012

I hope I demonstrated that it is not a controversial topic, at least in some regard, having taken on some of the counter-arguments.

You must log in to post a comment. Please register if you do not have an account yet.