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Used games: The moral imperative of GameStop and consumers

Photo3-web
Friday, May 13, 2011
EDITOR'S NOTEfrom Rob Savillo

As regular Bitmobbers know, I think this is an important issue. The continued erosion of ownership rights begins with the ongoing assault by developers and publishers on the value of secondhand games. Lawyer and copyright activist Lawrence Lessig predicted in Code: And Other Laws of Cyberspace, Version 2.0 (in 2006) the advent of services like OnLive, which he coined the "content jukebox." Do you want all your purchases eventually tied to an account that someone else ultimately controls? These are the stakes.

GameStop Logo

In his latest Editor’s Note, Escapist Editor-in-Chief Russ Pitts takes umbrage with GameStop for used-game sales, with the implication being that GameStop puts its own self-interest above the state of the industry. Presumably, gamers are the enablers allowing the charade to continue. To which I say, so what?

Russ’ droll, satiric commentary echoes a sentiment expressed by developers, publishers, and critics alike -- that retailers and consumers have a moral obligation to support the industry. Yet the ethical responsibility of both extends no further than enlightened self-interest.

 

“If only they'd [Gamestop] realize they're a dinosaur and lie down and die already, they wouldn't be stuffing their shelves with pre-owned merchandise, selling used discs for mere dollars off the price of new, cutting into publisher profits, and eroding the lifeline for struggling developers,” kvetches Russ.

I feel he fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the free market.

Consumers’ primary stimulus is attaining the best (perceived) value for their money. Altruism doesn’t figure into the equation. So, environmental activists won't convince a sizable majority to buy hybrid cars under the impetus of “saving the planet” (long-term value vs. short-term investment is a more viable tack). Similarly, the rationale of “supporting the industry” won’t inspire the masses to spend more on games than they have to. Most people will seek the best deal, irrespective of moral considerations. Nor should they feel obligated to serve any higher cause.

As long as they obtain the games legally, I see no problem with bargain hunting or alternatives to buying new. If gamers would prefer to save a few bucks, they should feel no compunction about purchasing used. If they’d like to borrow a friend’s copy, that’s their prerogative. Gamers don’t owe the industry anything and vice-versa. The gamer-industry relationship is strictly business related. It begins and ends when money changes hands.

Should consumers therefore feel obligated to “support” their chosen hobby? Take Brink, for example. Must gamers feel obligated to spend $60 in order to show their allegiance to the industry and provide financial support? A cursory search on eBay revealed a deal for $47.99 (plus free shipping). Should I feel guilty about saving $12? The answer to all these questions is no.

Some feel that GameStop’s excessive profit on used-game sales is immoral. But who gets to decide how much profit is morally acceptable? Should we regulate the price of used games? And upon whom do we place such an onus? The industry? The government? This line of inquiry leads us to a very ugly place. Here’s something else to consider: If we reduced the price of used games, the industry would whine that we’re making their purchase more enticing. The only way to solve this problem is to eliminate the secondary market, and that’s an absurd proposition.

To take my eBay analogy further, is it immoral for collectible dealers to turn outrageous profits on baseball cards or beanie babies? I see no difference between individuals hawking their wares on the secondary market versus corporations doing the same thing. The argument that a multinational corporation, such as GameStop, has lots of money and isn't entitled to the excess profits that used-game sales generate is specious at best.

Despite the industry’s protestations, the legality of the secondary market is not in dispute. I quote from Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109 (i.e. the “first-sale doctrine”):

“The owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.”

Amazon's, eBay's, and GameStop’s used-game departments (among other secondary sources) fall under this statute. Developers and publishers have no right to a cut of the profits past a game’s initial sale. The industry is desperately pining for the veritable “all-digital future” so they can control all means of distribution, thereby eliminating the secondary market. In the process, we risk losing fundamental property rights.

The Xbox Live Marketplace ties purchases to your account, so if you switch game consoles, you must be logged in to redownload your content. No internet access means you forfeit your downloads. The PlayStation Network (when it’s up) restricts downloads to up to five consoles. In the case of OnLive, your “purchases” are actually extended rentals.

Don’t get me wrong -- retailers aren’t sterling angels. When I worked for Electronics Boutique years ago, we’d shrink-wrap returned games (in new condition) and resell them. Juxtaposed with the perceived benefits of buying new over used, this was morally vexing. But the elimination of new-game returns (owing to retailers’ self-interest) put an immediate end to this thoroughly despicable practice.

Still, I’ll take retailers and their occasional moral failings over the industry’s vision of somnambulant gamers swallowing whatever’s fed to them and an all-digital future where we don’t own what we purchase. I love video games, but feel no need for reciprocation. I “owe” the industry nothing.  Beyond obtaining my games legally, I feel no sense of obligation. If that means I don’t “support” the industry, then so be it.

 
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Comments (79)
Rsz_1magus2
May 12, 2011

Very nice article and a topic I feel strongly about as well.  Why are videogames different than any other market out there?  Are refurbished computers tanking Dell's sales? Do used car lots put new dealers out of business?  Are yard sales killing the furniture market? No way!  There will always exist consumers who must have zero day, unused product and those who prefer to wait and bargain hunt.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Good point, August. What the opponents of used game sales tend to forget is that without new game sales, the secondary market logically couldn't exist. Used games might prevent further new game sales, but it's not up to the industry to forcibly control consumers' behavior.

Profile_pic4
May 12, 2011

Here here!  I agree with this post so strongly that I am considering slapping my name on it, shrink-wrapping it, and placing it on another site, but with only 95% of the words.

Seriously though, Jason.  Fine piece.  You can't see it from where you are at, but I'm currently standing and applauding as I type.  Mr. Pitts should reevaluate his stance, if only because of REALITY.

I would take this a step further and say to Russ Pitts: "In communist Russia, game sells YOU."

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Thanks Keith! I do believe Russ' piece was heavily satirical, but he clearly believes some of what he's saying, including the bit about used game sales. And you know what they say--there's truth in satire.

Img_20100902_162803
May 12, 2011
The video game price point is too prohibitive. Movies, music, books, even art exhibits are cheaper than a new game.
Robsavillo
May 12, 2011

I definitely agree that used games are an overall positive not just for consumers, but the industry, too. I spoke with Simon Rothman (formerly of eBay Motors) about this topic, and he said that a strong secondary market supports the primary market. When eBay Motors nationalized used-car sales through the website under his leadership, he says that new cars retained their value for longer.

But I don't quite understand where you're going with this:
 

"To take my eBay analogy further, is it immoral for collectible dealers to turn outrageous profits on baseball cards or beanie babies? I see no difference between individuals hawking their wares on the secondary market versus corporations doing the same thing. The argument that multinational corporations have lots of money and don’t need more is specious at best. It’s the same flawed logic that excuses piracy. "


What?

(Side note: I wish we could have a discussion about used games without bringing up piracy...but I digress.)

Img_20100902_162803
May 12, 2011
I am not sure how moral and ethics apply to the purchase of second hand video games. Should I feel ashamed or guilt-ridden because I bought Fable 2 used after it was not available new? I think not.
Robsavillo
May 12, 2011

...I don't think so either, Juan.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

My comparison between eBay and GameStop was to point out the similarity between individuals and corporations participating in the secondary market. People excuse individuals, but consider it immoral for corporations to make money doing the same things. I see no difference.

Some (not me) consider used games equivalent to piracy, so its inclusion is axiomatic. If anything, I could’ve gone further in that direction, but I didn’t want to beat a dead horse.

In response to Juan, morals and ethics *don’t* apply to purchasing used games. That’s my point. Some, however, consider the existence of the secondary market immoral, and feel we have a moral duty to support the industry (through buying new).

Robsavillo
May 12, 2011

Jason, I suppose my issue is mostly with the last two sentences of that excerpt. How is the argument that multinational corporations don't need more money the same flawed logic that excuses piracy? That last sentence feels forced and irrelevant to the argument in the paragraph.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

I believe we've both had our say regarding piracy, but you have to admit that many excuse it under the supposition that corporations deserve what they get (for pricing games too high, monopolistic or anti-consumer business practices, and other real or imagined offenses), or can "afford" it because they're big corporations. Not saying you feel this way, but many do.

Similarly, many consider GameStop's used game profits immoral because GameStop is a big corporation and doesn't *need* the extra money. I would retort that used game sales represent something like 1/4 of their business, so they *do* need the profits. But keep in mind I don't agree with the original sentiment.

Robsavillo
May 12, 2011

Your logic is flawed. Just because an individual pirates content because she, for example, believes the price to be to high does not necessarily also mean that she believes corporations don't deserve to make money. Her justification could simply be that she's been priced out and cannot afford the content but would gladly do so at a lower price. You've made a leap in your assumptions to ascribe motivations that you cannot know.

Further, I've not seen any data to suggest that people pirate content for the sole and primary purpose of keeping corporations from making money. Most justifications fall under people's own self-interests.

Regarding GameStop, I have read people argue that the retailer doesn't deserve profits from used games specifically, but that's a far cry from suggesting that GameStop doesn't need money (or to make money).

Robsavillo
May 12, 2011

Ack. I meant, "...does not necessarily also mean that she believes corporations don't need to make money." Not "deserves."

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

People employ myriad justifications when resorting to piracy (including a pathological hatred of developers, publishers, and retailers), but their motivation probably can be ascribed to one of two reasons--either they genuinely can't afford it and feel entitled to the content anyway, or are too cheap to pay for it. Given all the alternative options to buying new, as enumerated in my piece, I especially can't empathize with the latter reason.

So yes, justifications for piracy fall under self-interest, but that's where I draw the line. As long as games are obtained legally, I'm all for self-interest driving consumers' purchasing decisions.

And I never said that GameStop doesn’t need money, but that some feel they don't deserve the *extra* money provided by used game sales (which represent high profit percentages). I think it's absurd to quibble over how much money GameStop should be allowed to make, morally or legally.

Robsavillo
May 12, 2011

Jason, your text clearly states "need" in the quoted section...which is where you make the argument about GameStop through a flawed analogy between multinational corporations and piracy.

I agree with you (which is why I'm pushing for some clarity in this instance). But your article states otherwise than what you're writing in these comments, and I think that quoted section detracts from the thrust of your argument.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Read it now.

Robsavillo
May 12, 2011

Much better!

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Rob, please re-read the quote. "The argument that multinational corporations have lots of money and don’t need more is specious at best." I thought I made it abundantly clear that what I refer to is Gamestop's *excess* profits on used game sales.

"Some feel that GameStop’s excessive profit on used game sales is immoral."

In any case, I'll attempt to clarify it in the piece.

Avatarrob
May 12, 2011
I quite agree wih the thrust of your article. Questions of morality are ludicrous when phrased in terms of where to purchase an entertainment product. I do, however, think it's worth considering the effect on the developer when I'm deciding how to purchase games. Simply enough, if I particularly enjoy a developer's output, it behooves me to attempt to buy a new copy of their games over a slightly cheaper used copy, in the same way as supporting my favourite authors and bands with my purchases. The question then becomes whether my support for the developer is enough to overcome the difference in price.
Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Supporting the industry is nice, though no gamer should feel obligated to do so. I, for one, will certainly be purchasing new copies of Infamous 2, Uncharted 3, and Mass Effect 3, though my decision has more to do with attaining them ASAP than greater moral considerations. And if somebody runs a sale, say as Buy.com did for LA Noire, I'll buy from whoever offers the best bargain.

Sexy_beast
May 12, 2011

I don't ever really bring morality into the picture when it comes to most business dealings (unless something big and illegal transpires). My problem with buying used is that the majority of that "secondary market" lies in the hands of Gamestop. Like Starbucks, it's a predatory business that is more concerned with being #1 than being of good quality. Lack of variety in any market is not a good thing, especially if it's for the mere sake of convenience.

Another detrimental effect that the secondary market has on this industry is that it reinforces the lack of change or developers' willingness to take risks. If consumers (even hardcore ones like yourself) are only willing to buy new games from older, already-established franchises, then there's really no reason to try anything different. You stated three examples of games you planned on buying new, all of which were sequels. I don't urge people to always buy new, but I do encourage them to take a chance here and there.

The secondary market isn't completely a bad thing, and I don't think people have a moral obligation to buy new titles, but there are certain cases where the defense of a monopolistic, predatory business like Gamestop seems...well, a little much. I would support the secondary market and implore people to buy from local dealers, but Gamestop has made sure that such a thing is nearly impossible to do nowadays.

The free market is fantastic and has given us so many wonderful things, but it's not without its flaws, and it's not without its abundance of people/businesses who are willing to take advantage of those flaws.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

How does GameStop's predominance hurt the market? How is it a "predatory" business? GameStop may be one of the few dedicated gaming shops, but they're hardly the only game in town. Wallmart, Best Buy, Target, PC Richards, and Fry's all sell games, and many of these are getting into the used game viz. And that's just the brick-and-mortars. There's also online loss-leaders and the secondary market. If consumers don't wish to patronize GameStop, there's plenty of alternatives. What monopoly do you refer to?

Ryan, it's quite a stretch to claim that the used game market reinforces the lack of change in the industry. First of all, I believe there's tons of variety in today's market, even amongst the Triple A crowd. The three games I mentioned are very different experiences, not to mention the countless others I can't afford or don’t prefer. Moreover, the reason I'm convinced to buy those three games is because I'm certain about them. This isn't to say I haven't bought (and enjoyed) quirky titles like Heavy Rain. But generally, if I'm unfamiliar with a franchise or title, I'll either peruse reviews or wait for a bargain. This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Should I drop $60 on a game I'm unsure of, at the risk of wasting my money? Logically-speaking, should we therefore remove games journalists from the equation so there's no one to dissuade me from buying games I'm unsure about? I can appreciate your position, but I prefer to be as informed as possible before branching into the unknown. I feel no obligation to spend money on something I don't want in order to support the industry's creative development.

Besides, the three titles I mentioned are merely the ones I’m *sure* about. I buy a lot more than three games a year, and undoubtedly a few more of them will be new.

Sexy_beast
May 12, 2011

How does GameStop's predominance not hurt the market? They have taken whatever amount of community remained within the retail world of gaming and have completely demolished it. At the risk of sounding old (even though I'm only 24), I remember having a very specific gaming store "Jim's Digital Dungeon" that I would frequent in my hometown of Bakersfield. They knew me personally -- my tastes in games, my history with them -- and would even offer me deals on specific types of games that they knew I liked. I even traded and purchased used games from them; It felt decent enough because I knew them personally, and they took the time to know me personally.

But then GameStop moved in a few stores away from them and proceeded to offer up ridiculous deals that "The Dungeon" couldn't compete with, and so they were forced to sell themselves to GameStop and, of course, become another GameStop. I later learned that the original GameStop wasn't even making money; they were merely trying to force the other store out of business.

That's what I mean by predatory.

And it's not quite a streth to claim that this industry suffers from stagnation, because people complain about it all the time. There are plenty of exceptions of course -- the indie market, for one -- however the best-selling titles on the market aren't exactly the most original things out there. And I'm not the only one pointing such things out.

To me, it seems like you're arguing in favor of GameStop just for the sake of arguing.

Because other conglomerates like Wal-Mart and Target sell games, GameStop's control over the game retail market seems alright?

No.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Ryan, you're discussing intangibles, which are irrelevant to the discussion as far as I'm concerned. I could care less whether I buy from GameStop, Wallmart, Amazon, or Joe's Game Store. I feel no obligation to "support local businesses" if it means paying more. Conversely, I won't hesitate to seek alternatives to GameStop if better deals can be found elsewhere. I'm not for or against GameStop (at least in the sense that I'd patronize them if they're not the best deal in town).

Last year's U.S. best-sellers showed marked variety-- Call of Duty: Black Ops, Madden NFL 11, Halo: Reach, New Super Mario Bros. Wii , Red Dead Redemption, Wii Fit Plus, Just Dance 2, Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, NBA2K11.

And if quirky, experimental titles didn't make the list, I'd argue it's because consumers, by and large, don't want them. People complain about a lot of things, but ultimately they vote with their wallets, and that must be respected. Critics are also fond of bemoaning gaming's alleged troubles, but I feel we're in a new golden age. Games have never been better, and the variety is astonishing.

Sexy_beast
May 12, 2011
Pardon me if I feel that your views on the consumer market sound unabashedly selfish. Perhaps I'm missing something, but such an unapologetic urge to save a few dollars -- no matter the implications -- does seem a bit...wrong.
Img_20100902_162803
May 12, 2011

But Ryan you have a choice to avoid Gamestop, Starbucks and any other retailer that do not suit your needs. It is a personal choice, and a lot of the major publishers have their own stores that one can buy hard or digital copies of their games.

I really do not understand how Gamestop is monopolistic. Other places have started to accept trade in games and will soon start selling them (amazon, best buy, toys r us).

Sexy_beast
May 12, 2011

Juan, I understand that we're supposedly given "choice", but when a lot of the choices are a number of conglomerates, that supposed choice is a mere buzz word. Competition and it's capabilities to affect change are virtually non existent with big companies, because competition becomes more about numbers than actual quality and service.

I find it unfortunate that these other "choices" I have, in regards to buying games, are from companies that are just as impersonal as the next. One of the main reasons I enjoy games is because of its potential for community, though GameStop, Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, and Amazon don't give a shit about you...at all.

Sexy_beast
May 12, 2011

Also, pardon my spelling. I just got back from watching a hockey game that I care nothing about, as an excuse to drink with friends. I don't even know who won.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Ryan, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't feel consumers have any obligation to the industry or retailers. If you abhor the alleged business practices of GameStop, you're welcome to not patronize them. I know people who refuse to shop at Wallmart for similar reasons. I will continue to seek out the best deals, irrespective of whoever offers them. Why should consumers not be selfish?

Sexy_beast
May 12, 2011

Why should consumers not be selfish? Did you really just ask me that?

I feel like this is a trick or something...

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

Lets just say we see the world differently and leave it at that. You feel consumers have an obligation to support the industry, patronize local busineses, etc. I don't. I believe that consumers' self-interest is the primary motivator. I don't know how else to explain it, because I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Sexy_beast
May 12, 2011

That's fairly obvious. And it's obvious that you fail to understand that I don't feel that consumers have an obligation to support the industry, nor am I always in favor of local businesses. Just because I give one example of such does not mean I'm 100% in favor of it.

What I do believe, though, is that any gamer with an unwavering passion for the industry and an aspiration to see the medium grow into something even more amazing will put his support for the industry before his own, selfish desires.

Photo3-web
May 12, 2011

So....you don't feel consumers have an obligation to support the industry, but then admonish me for saying I don't feel obligated to support it *shrugs shoulders*

If putting my support for the industry before my own selfish desires means ignoring sales (or the secondary market), count me out. The only instance in which I’ll voluntarily part with more money than is necessary is when I give to charity.

If there's a $5 difference between new and used, I'll usually choose new. But this has more to do with the perceived difference in quality, rather than a desire to "support the industry." If my dollars fill the industry's coffers, I consider it a bonus.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

One thing that a lot of gamers never consider about GameStop is that the high-profit margin of used games has allowed the retailer to open more than 6,000 locations across the country. Wherever I go, I see a GameStop -- even the smallest towns and rural shopping centers have at least one.

That's huge! And each store means more sales and more exposure of new games, too. (See: GameStop's annual reports -- the most recent shows that sales of new software is larger than that of used products (software and hardware combined), but they also make more profit from used products than new software.)

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Agreed. For all its faults, GameStop does far more good than harm for the industry. Nor do I have an inherent aversion to large corporations. As you point out, the benefits are myriad.

Pict0079-web
May 13, 2011

I really think GameStop has formalized video game retail standards  with its country-wide stores. As much as I like the mom-and-pop stores, I think that GameStop helped to develop ethical standards for selling games. For instance, I don't see as many mom-and-pop owners trying to sell overpriced games and systems anymore.

I'm not a big fan of buying used games, but I can't resist buying them from GameStop. The clerks are friendly video game nuts. They also usually have firsthand knowledge about the games that are worth everyone's time and money.

Blog
May 13, 2011

The notion that used games are like used furniture is fine--as long as you remember that no idiot goes and buys a second hand couch and then bitches to IKEA that their ottoman is missing.

Many gamers want to talk about having no obligation to the industry, but they are the most vocal sycophants when it comes time to whinge about DLC they didn't get or online features they "deserve".

I can't tell you how many people I've heard boast, "I'm never supporting that company again because I couldn't play Madden online for free with my used copy!" Well, if you bought it used then you didn't support the company anyway. You supported a middle man who didn't send a dime to the developer you want features and support from.

I've got no problem with the notion that the used market is like the used car market, the second hand furniture market or whatever you want to say. The thing is, if you want to apply that logic you have to then remember that when you buy ANYTHING else in the world second hand you don't expect the original manufacturer to handle the warranty. You don't expect them to exchange your beaten up couch for a new one of equal or lesser value and you don't expect that they'll repair or replace any missing features from your new used item.

If gamers can stop expecting used games to have the same features and support as new games then they can start bitching about the double standard. Until then, they're the only ones creating one.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

Actually, car warranties (that are still valid) routinely transfer from the original buyer to the second.

Blog
May 13, 2011

That may be, but the person reselling is perfectly allowed to replace the tires, put in a cheaper oil, gas it up with non-premium gas etc.

You're also talking about an industry that requires more regulation due to health and safety and due to the high cost of certain parts and repair. Even then, as you mention in an aside, you're talking warranties that are still valid. Once they're no longer valid you go back to the used dealer and not the original dealer.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

Presumably, the online portion of a game is still valid (indefinitely), too. Warranties have explicit expiration dates. Online multiplayer never does. Making online services nontransferable is a different story.

Used games physically degrade just the same. But GM doesn't come to your house and take the tires back when you sell your car.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

I remember Rob pointing out in a previous debate that, in terms of numbers, the "support" of used games doesn't cost the developer anything extra, because the original owner is no longer being "supported." The "support" merely transfers. Unless the original owner pirates the game, thereby creating an extra copy, and the inherent support, I don't see a problem. What you’re talking about, Steven, is punishing second-hand owners because they didn’t “support” the developer/publisher. I don’t feel gamers are owed anything. But the develop/publisher should continue to honor the original sale’s obligations, irrespective of future ownership.

In previous articles, I've decried gamers for their endemic entitlement mentality. But I don't feel this falls under that umbrella.

Blog
May 13, 2011

Did some research and most transferrable warrantees only transfer ONCE. Not indefinitely. That means that if we're comparing to cars  (which is still a huge reach) then selling a game to Gamestop they get the single transferable warantee. After that that it wouldn't continue to the second, third, fourth owner etc. For that matter, the developers aren't coming to your house and taking your tires, they're just not giving you newer/better tires than the ones you have. They're happy to provide  you with GM factory tires, but you'll have to pay for them.

However, if we're comparing it to the used book/furniture/yard sale style world then the argument is even more facile. There's only one couch, but we don't go back to the original couch maker and demand a foot rest. If we buy a used book with pages missing we don't get to demand extra pages from the publisher.

If people don't like getting 90% of a game when they go out and buy it then they shouldn't pay 90% of a game's cost.

And you're wrong, they shouldn't honor the previous sales terms. For example: You buy a game directly from EA or Activision through their first party retailer. You have a relationship with them now. They have, even though facelessly, chosen to deal with you.

You sell your game back to Gamestop and I come in a buy it with my little Gamestop card for 10% off the used price. I have agreed to purchase a game from Gamestop, not Activision, not EA. I might not even know who they are (a stretch, yes, but only because I chose the two biggest developers).

EA and Activision certainly don't know that I just walked into a store and bought something second hand. Second hand is "As is" which is also why Gamestop has to offer their own 30 day warrantees on games and consoles. They know as well as I do that it's their responsibility now.

If I came to them as a perfect stranger demanding that my second hand goods worked as well as if I'd paid for them new then they would, and rightly so, say, "who are you again?"

I'm not their customer. I'm Gamestop's customer. In general it sounds like a lot of people who want to justify dumping on the people who do the work in order to congratulate middle men and save themselves five bucks. That's always going to be a reach to me and rarely arguable.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Steven, you had me till you started talking about dumping on developers, congratulating middle men and saving five dollars (maybe even kicking puppies?). I think you miss the crux of my argument. I hold no antipathy towards developers, and don't choose pre-owned (when I do so--I buy new sometimes) to stick it to the man. I do it out of self-interest, and a desire to get the best value for my money. For several reasons, I'll usually pay the $5 extra for the new version, but once the difference reaches $10 or more, I go with the bargain. The industry would remind us they're not in the charitable business, and this is a two-way street. My purchase indicates no desire on my part to award or punish specific organizations or individuals. It's to attain the best value for my money.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

"For that matter, the developers aren't coming to your house and taking your tires...."

Yes, they are. They are telling the first buyer that she does not own the multiplayer portion of the game. When she tries to sell the game as she has played it, they take that bit away so that she cannot transfer it to the second buyer.

You're still making false analogies and proping up strawmen because this, "There's only one couch, but we don't go back to the original couch maker and demand a foot rest," isn't an argument that anyone's making.

Rothman, whom I mentioned above, also argued that by devaluing the used product, you're also devaluing the new product. If people know they can expect to sell a $60 game for $25 later on, they're much more willing to continually buy $60 games. But if EA's Project Ten dollar devalues the used copy by $10, now the new-game buyer may be less likely to regularly spend $60, knowing that she'll only get $15 back.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Reducing the price of used games (to cut into GameStop's profits) only makes their purchase more enticing. Developers would then whine that GameStop is intentionally undercutting them. It's a lose-lose situation.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

Jason, I'm actually refering to retention value, not resale price. In other words, GameStop buys back most new $60 for around $25 during the first month or so of release, so consumers know that their purchase can net them back $25, which means in their minds that they're really only spending $35.

But if you devalue the used copy, you devalue the new copy, too. That retention value lowers, so the $60 minus trade-in is $45 instead of $35. Suddently, gaming costs the buyer more money simply because the used copy was devalued.

Blog
May 13, 2011

The minute you drive a new car off the lot. Some estimates of devaluation is as much as 20% within the first day. Seems like that's fairly in line with the value loss you're talking about. The online passes cost about 16-17% of the cost of the original game which was probably only marked down about 8% to begin with.

You can use the words straw man all you want, but the responsibility starts with the consumer. If they hadn't turned to the used market so frequently (and for so small a discount) then they wouldn't have had to find ways to devalue the used market.

Again, this isn't to say that people shouldn't buy used games. They just shouldn't expect them to be honored as new games.

If the argument is, "the consumer's best interest is to buy used and the developers should deal with it," then I see no valid reason for developers to care if the used game is devalued.

I'm well aware I'm in the minority on this particular argument. That doesn't mean I'm  not being well reasoned. I think furniture stores are a poor analogy too. I only brought it up because someone else used it before I did.

We seem happy to allow poor analogies in support of our arguments, but not against them.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

Steven, these are all your analogies, so don't pin that on me.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Oh, I know, I wasn't responding to you specifically, but making a general statement. Many (including in this thread) have suggested that GameStop doesn't deserve or shouldn't be allowed to make as much money as it does on pre-owned merchandise. The only alternatives would be for GameStop to offer a higher trade-in value, which won't happen, or lower the price of used-games. They'll be excoriated either way. Either they're soaking up excess process, or intentionally undercutting the industry by making the purchase of used games overly-enticing.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

Oh, my mistake, Jason!

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Ugh, I meant excess profits. Edit tool! :)

Blog
May 13, 2011

Rob, the used furniture market analogy was made by August well before I weighed in. I'm sure you'll realize that by reading up.

People were also discussing used cars before I arrived.

I'm just piping in with my own takes on the analogies.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

Ah. I admit I haven't read all these comments. But I still content that the publisher taking away multiplayer functionality is similar to GM taking away your car's tires when you sell, not the second buyer asking GM for a new set of tires. That's the false analogy you're making.

Blog
May 13, 2011

Hmm. Yeah, I've got to think if I was writing a paper that one would definitely need to be ironed out. I think my thought process wasn't focused on the tires, but when tires came in I just ran with it and made a haphazard go at it.

For me I think it was more like this (though still probably not quite right): When you buy a lot of new cars now the dealership/manufacturer will include a free 3 months or year of Onstar or AAA service for the car.

Once that time has elapsed you can then renew your Onstar membership or your AAA service, but it is no longer complementary. They don't strip out the equipment for Onstar just because you're no longer using it and at any time you'd be welcome to pay a fee and have the service restored, but it is not perpetually complementary.

Your car still runs fine, but you might not have immediate roadside assistance or connection to a rep when you need it.

I know this still won't quite resonate with people--especially if they put a premium on online content--but it's probably less sloppy than the tire thing...which I agree now didn't hold up.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

But that's where your analogy continues to fall apart. Games don't release with a coupon for three months of online multiplayer. They just release with that functionality with no stipulations. Furthermore, the first-time buyer never has to "renew" (i.e., pay more for) the multiplayer functionality.

You can also argue that such functionality is a core piece of the game, i.e., that without it, the game doesn't work the same/isn't as valuable anymore. Multiplayer functionality and a three-month service/warranty agreement are not similar in the slightest. I can still drive my car, use the radio, and do everything else without the service agreement. I cannot play Tiger Woods PGA Tour 11 the same way as the first-time buyer if I buy secondhand without shelling out extra money to EA.

The AAA service agreement may be more similar to an MMO supscription, and quite frankly, no one expects an MMO scription to transfer with a copy of the game. No one makes this argument with respect to that genre.

What we're talking about with something like Project Ten Dollar is when the publisher takes away a portion of the game through technological means. Project Ten Dollar removes ownership from a portion of the game because it is nontransferable to a second buyer. This can only be analogous to GM coming to your house and taking something from your car when you sell it to someone else.

Rsz_1magus2
May 13, 2011

I made the comparison to other used market's (cars, furniture, computers) to counter the point of the publishers who wine about lost revenue due to used games being sold.  It was in no way addressed to the consumer complaining of not getting the entire functionality of the game. 

Though I do agree with Rob on the take that if you offer a product for sale, then the purchaser of that product should have the full rights of that product and the ability to resell those rights to another party.

Blog
May 13, 2011

Then let's talk without bringing in another industry.

Ten years ago no one really expected online content. Companies like Nintendo still sell tons of systems and tons of games with limited to no online functionality.

Most developers still consider the online components of their games to be "extra" parts of the game and not the main course. Games like Dragon Age still play just fine without the project ten dollar stuff being there. Some of the story is gone, but no more or less than some of the DLC that you might find for 5-10 bucks later.

We've gotten to the point where we expect online stuff. It used to be an extra, so companies didn't have to spend so much on it. Games have actually decreased in price (when you consider inflation) while development costs have gone up. They go up further when you have to devote just as much time to a secondary online component and then support it via servers, patches, etc.

So, if online play is suddenly an inseperable part of the experience then we gamers should probably feel fortunate that developers and publishers haven't started charging more. After all, if we're talking about what we expect from an MMO, then the online component of any game could suddenly fall into the same category.

Developers would say, "You can have the single player for free, but the online component will fall under an MMO style monthly setup."

The problem with the arguments being made is that it suggests some sort of single category that this stuff falls into and that's why your analogy falls apart. There's no difference between an MMO and a game with an extra online feature--except that people don't want to have to pay for an extra online feature the way they would for a monthly MMO.

We talk about "expectations" but expectations are socially constructed and supported. No one knew if the monthly model would work until it did. No one knows if project 10 dollar will work (though so far I love it because rather than see it as punishment, I see it as incentivising loyal fans who buy new).

I'm rambling a bit so let me bullet my thoughts quickly:

1. If online gaming is simply a bonus feature (which I would argue has been its role until very recently) then losing it is not the same as losing access to the single player campaign. However, if it's a key part of the game then there is little distinction between an MMO or any other game with an integral online component. If this is the case then gamers shouldn't expect to get online gaming free. If it's that key to the value of the game then it's worth at least some portion of the monthly fees we've already agreed are reasonable.

2. We can't talk about Project Ten Dollar as if it's a secret. They've done everything they can do to make sure that it's not a secret and then we've all talked about it enough to make sure people know about it. So, if a game ships with a certain promised functionality new, but with a lack of said functionality used, then the expectations of the buyer should be just that. Buying a game used and being angry that it doesn't have everything--well that only works if you thought you would have everything when you bought it. If you know what you're in for going into it then it's simply a decision you have to live with. If someone like Gamestop chooses to keep you in the dark to make a sale, of course its in their best interest to rile up the gamers with a false consciousness and send them after the developer and publisher. Still doesn't make it valid.

3. You're saying that games don't release with a coupon, but at this point is where your argument hits a switch and falls through a trap door. When I bought my copy of NHL 11 this year I got a coupon code to type in which gave me my free 10 dollar pass. When I got Dragon Age 2 I had a coupon that gave me my free 10 dollar DLC. When I bought Portal 2 I got a coupon that gave me a free copy for my PC. They all release with these coupons now--but only if you buy them new.

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

Steven, your premise that 10 years ago no one expected online content is preposterous. In the PC space, we've had such content and functionality for far longer. I downloaded free WADs for Doom. I played free online multiplayer over Battle.net.

We're way beyond online multiplayer being a bonus extra feature. Free online content has been a staple and a core component of games for far too long. Aside from MMOs, gamers expect it because they've always had it.

So if publishers want to change than expectation and monetize it, they shouldn't be surprised by the backlash.

Blog
May 13, 2011

Preposterous? Hmm. Heavy handed when what you probably mean is, "not yet supported."

Fine: PC gamers probably expect online stuff more than others, although I don't think of the online experiences of Counterstrike or Diablo II being quite the same as what you deal with in the console market. Still, your point just magnifies my point. We can't talk about PC games the way we talk about console games. That's obvious. We shouldn't use the expectations of one side to comment on the side of the others.

I mean, there has been nearly ZERO used game market for PCs for even longer, so you could argue that the people who pioneer online gaming also pioneered regulation of resale. You can't point to one without admitting the other evidence that comes with that.

PC games require key registration (even more so with DRM). So, you could argue that PC developers feel less fear about supporting online features because they regulate online gaming through unique keys. Even free services like B.Net have long relied on unique keys to prevent pirated copies from getting onto the network.

I'm willing to defer to some of your points--even as they are more dismissive than necessary at times--but they all seem to exist in their own vacuum.

I think to really talk about this probably requires that we talk about one issue at a time. We can't talk about PC games without piracy. We can't talk about console games and online features as a whole without Nintendo ruining the generalizations. We can't talk about the PSN vs. XBox Live because, of course, Microsoft and Sony have both taken different paths to premium vs. non premium content.

One disappointing thing about this argument (conversation?) is that I can see slivers of logic from you even as I disagree, but you seem to be focusing on the one part of my argument that you can slam into the ground each turn. This last round was my suggestion that online gaming is still in its infancy. Of course I meant in terms of consoles, but yes, on PCs online gaming is further along.

Then again, as I said, on PCs the used market was squelched long ago and so isn't quite the control group needed for this argument.

I think we're probably both saying a lot of valid stuff, but neither of us is actually coming at it from the same set of conceits. This means the wheels are officially off this argument by virtue of an apples and oranges mishap.

I enjoyed it though. Seriously. This is how all gaming discourse should be. It's so much better than "[Name redacted] sucks," that it makes my heart sing just to know that this much intellect was brought to the table to discuss an issue that we clearly disagree on.

I appreciate the attention you gave to my arguments, even as that attention was used primarily in attempt to refute my arguments. In a way, that's quite a complement and I hope you'll see my time spent in the same way.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Steven, at least no one's won the Godwin award (and rarely do in a discussion about gaming--one of the reasons I love getting into a meaty debate).

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

I agree that there's a lot of apple/organes going on, definitely. And you're absolutely right that unique CD-keys killed the PC secondary market, so I'll conceed that PC expectations do not necessarily translate evenly to consoles.

If we are to take a lesson home, though, we have to consider that PC games, without a used option, exist in a considerably smaller market than console games, which do have a used option. I've read no conclusive evidence that can lay the blame entirely on piracy, either...but I don't think we need to go there. The bottom line is that we cannot know the motivations of file-sharers, i.e., we cannot know whether they would have purchased the game at all (if a pirated copy did not exist, for example). But this speaks directly to what Rothman argues about how a strong secondary market supports the primary market.

I enjoyed the discussion thoroughly -- this kind of thing is a little too rare.

Default_picture
May 13, 2011

 

I think there are really two issues at play here –

First, whether it’s ok to buy and sell used games, and I agree with you that it is. In addition to those $55 used games that happened to have released recently, there are tons of ‘out-of-print’ games that you can’t get in any other way.

Second, whether gamers should support digital distribution. Back when Alien Hominid was first released, I bought it for full price. I love that game and I’m glad I supported the developer, but honestly it was difficult for me to pay that much to begin with, especially for a game that was short and difficult. Now games like that get released as $10 or $15 downloadable titles. That’s better for me, and it’s better for the developer. It’s more important to me that I got to play Castle Crashers than that I be able to resell it.

Meanwhile, some of those $55 used games force you to buy a pass to play online – and I think that’s ok too. It’s expensive to keep servers up, and it seems reasonable to mandate that everyone who uses the servers has to contribute in some way.

Now – as to Gamestop’s role: I try to avoid buying used games when I want to encourage the developer. And hey, if I hadn’t bought Alien Hominid, would Castle Crashers have been made? However, there will be another COD and Mario Kart no matter what I do; if I don’t feel like buying a used game will cost me a sequel, I’m going to consider that used copy.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

I have no aversion specifically to supporting developers. It's a nice gesture when possible, but shouldn't guide consumers' purchasing decisions, as altruism works against consumers' best interests. Concerns regarding property rights would prevent me from downloading anything beyond DLC or indy titles from XBL or PSN. If the same title, released digitally, is cheaper than its physical brethren, that's a compelling reason to download content. But, at least in the case of OnLive, virtual purchases cost the same as a physical copy.

Blog
May 13, 2011

It absolutely should guide consumers' purchasing decision. Period.

The world you're describing is one with zero collective action, zero shared responsibility and a completely selfish nihilism.

It's the suggestion that saving five dollars is in the consumer's best interest rather than promoting and rewarding quality and craft. So, let's fix a few things.

1. The consumer only exists when depersonalizing human beings. At all times let's replace "consumer" with "human beings" and then move from there. The consumer is a depersonalized excuse to favor wealth and commerse over human beings and the human experience. We are not consumers or commodities, those are just buzz words to strip people of their power and responsibility all at once.

2. Altruism doesn't work against anyone if there's collective action. It is widespread selfish cynicism that creates collapses in game theory. If everyone agreed that they would support developers first I can bet you that plenty of developers would reward their consumers--or the used market would finally reach a buy cost/resale cost ratio that isn't so astronomically in their favor. People should do the right thing even if it costs them five bucks more.

3. It's almost always possible to buy first hand over second hand. The difference in cost for most used/new copies is roughly the cost of a Venti white mocha from Starbucks. Suggestions that it's just impossible to get over that hump when we're already talking about a luxury hobby is silly.

4. Gaming is a luxury of the affluent. It's not a right, nor is it necessary. We choose which games to buy and we know the pros and cons of each. If someone decides that their selfish interests are to save five bucks and let the developers piss off then I think it's awesome that the developers say, "well, you can piss right back off," and why wouldn't they. You didn't put money into their pockets, you put it into the pockets of Gamestop. They don't owe second hand buyers anything and those second hand buyers certainly haven't earned it. The great part is, if the argument is "consumers' best interest" then you're depersonalizing yourself--meaning developers don't have to think of you as a person. You've already coined yourself as a buzz word. If they're looking at who to satisfy they certainly aren't going to go out of their way to satisfy Gamestop's consumers, are they? Of course not.

These arguments against developers and for used games always seem to fall apart the minute you get past surface argument.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

This thread=single-handedly responsible for me getting no work done today. It's all good though :)

Steven, you're conflating charity with a business, and the free market with the individual's perceived responsibility towards society. The principles of collectivism and shared responsibility are peripheral to a discussion about consumers' rights. I abhor collectivism in general, but am a vet, and regularly give to charity. Both of these enterprises (the military and charitable organizations) don't function under the same rules as the free market. I give to charity towards that very purpose. Where consumerism takes precedence, altruism is irrelevant.

You're also getting hung up on the $5 figure and GameStop. Lets say the difference is $10 (as it often is with GameStop's club). Would it still be "just $10"? What about $15? $20? Personally, I'd favor new over used if it's merely $5, but there's rarely just two options (new for $60, used for $55). The point is not to mount a campaign in favor of GameStop or refuse to pay $5 for the express purpose of harming developers. The point is that collective action should be reserved for grassroots political action and charitable ventures. If a consumer would rather pay $55 than $60, either due to the price point, or GameStop's pre-owned return policy, I don't see an issue with it.

We're increasingly delving into the abstract here, but the fact that it's a luxury hobby has no bearing on one's inclination to spending more than he has to. A savvy consumer is a savvy consumer, whether he’s buying a bottle of water or a video game. I don’t see how the fact that gaming is a “luxury” automatically strips away all consumer rights, and demands that we pay whatever developers ask, all in the name of the greater good.

Developers aren’t treating us as abstract human beings. They’re treating us as highly-specialized consumers with specific wants and needs. If we appreciate what they’re offering, we buy their wares. If not, the game tanks. And it ought to be pointed out once again that without new sales, the secondary market can’t logically exist. It’s not an all-or-nothing proposition. It’s not a) Doggedly “support” the industry by never seeking bargains and always buying new, or b) Telling the industry to fuck off.

Picture_15
May 13, 2011

After reading the article and the comments, it's hard not to repeat what's already been said. I remember working at Funcoland in 02 and having to pull the display games off the wall, placing the wall copy in the case from a drawer and then shrink wrapping it to sell to a customer as NEW even though it had been opened and handled, possibly even played. This WAS store policy. The last copy of a game we had was always on display hanging on the wall (well, the case was) and when customers learned this as they're buying it, they were almost always upset. And who could blame them. They were paying the price of a new game for a slightly used copy. Anyway, great read. I like to save money, who doesn't, and if that means I need to wait 6 months to pay $20 for a game I really want that started off as $60, so be it. But to pay $5 less ($55) for a used copy when the game is still new ($60) is insulting to me. Gamestop shouldn't be making that much off a used title and if game companies want to start making money off of used copies, they should purchase them back and sell them at a reduced price lower than Gamestops. 

Sexy_beast
May 13, 2011

That's actually not a bad idea. Anything that takes GameStop down a peg I can get behind.

Profile_pic4
May 13, 2011

Some of these comments are longer than that article itself....

Blog
May 13, 2011

I think this has been a really great debate and created a great many incredible talking points. Kudos to Jason for posting a subject that has some meat and bone to bite into. This is clearly a topic that gamers need to hash out and I'm glad to have spent some time snarling at one another about it.

Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Here here! My modus operandi is and has always been that if you catch flak, it means you're on target ;)

Robsavillo
May 13, 2011

I concur!

Default_picture
May 13, 2011

I personally think that the used market is essential to the ability of people to get games that are out of print. That said, I don't care for the way Gamestop sells the used games from nearly day 1. I'd prefer if they waited until the game was out of print before selling used copies, or at least wait a month... 

Personally, a $5-8 discount isn't worth getting a used game for me. I always buy the new copy if it is available. I do trade in games if I'm completely sick of them and they're ones that I don't think any of my friends would enjoy.

Inception
May 13, 2011
Photo3-web
May 13, 2011

Slip of the mouse? :)

Marko_cotra
May 13, 2011

One of the best articles I've read in a while. Well done Jason!

Default_picture
May 14, 2011

There's that word again, "Loyalty." Funny how it always used in a one way street fashion. With this article for example, it outlines how a publisher always seems to talk about a loyal fanbase and is borderline demanding loyalty from the game players. Then you cone to the othe side when that very same developer completely screws over it's entire user base (Ubisoft, I'm looking at you) the excuse tends to be "we're a business and our goal is to make money."

I've said this before and I'll say it again here. Beyond your dollars, publishers for the most part do not care about you. Saying you are a loyal customer of a publisher will get you nothing more than a birthday announcement if you registered with them. My approach has always been a business approach. If I find a game that I like for the price I'm willing to pay, I buy it. If not, I walk away. No publisher has ever tried to garner any loyalty, so why should I bother granting any? To that end, whenever a publisher talks about loyalty, I have to laugh.

Bitmob_photo
May 18, 2011

Great article, and I agree. This point might have been made before, but I'm not going to go through the 76 other comments to check, but if publishers wanted to stop gamestop from cannibalizing their sales, they'd lower the cost of games. $60 is ridiculous. I still mostly buy new, but I'll buy used if the price is right.

Mindjack
June 03, 2011

The only reason I buy new games (versus used) whenever I can is simply because I don't usually trade my games, so I want them in mint condition. The few used games I've bought have not made me feel guilty one bit.

Speaking of eBay, I once sold a few bottles of nutrition supplements over there and got a cease and desist letter from the manufacturer, because they only want their products sold through network marketers at higher prices. I payed for those bottles, acquiring them legally, so they were mine to sell to whoever I damn pleased. eBay got scared and removed my listings. I've never heard of a game company that stopped selling their games to GameStop, fearing they'll end in the used section.

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