Agreed, I don't think I could bear that in addition to Marcus Fenix's cameo as that new soldier squadmate.

One other thing that I think is worth mentioning: When I first met Miranda, she appeared to be a typically oversexualised female character (with unnecessarily bitchy dialogue), but as I progressed through the game and her character was fleshed out she became more sympathetic . Especially with her loyalty mission and the information from Lair of the Shadow Broker. There's a fully developed personality in there for people who can look past the skintight catsuit - and maybe even wonder why she dresses like that. I thought it was a pleasant surprise to discover how much depth was hidden there.

I'll be really disappointed if Bioware lose their commitment to things like that.

A lot of stuff involved with the project 10 dollar and with strange marketing decisions overall make me think bioware is in a tug of war with EA in the age old marketability vs integrity debate. I think that so far bioware is doing decently considering the pressures they are under but I see a lot of room for both improvement and potential failure going forward.

As for this specific situation ultimately I look at the entire thing this way: A woman being dressed stupid is a much less serious crime then a woman being treated as an unimportant character or having an inconsistent or shallow character. So far bioware has been pretty good on the latter two so I can give them some leeway.

Still if the attractiveness of the character doesn't match the character itself, (IE. your talking about Miranda potentially having reasons to dress how she does) then this could undermine the character as a whole if the writing and visual design are at cross purposes.

Ha ha, nice Samir :-)

Lol. Sigh... ~__~

Of course FemShep is a feminist Icon, because people see her as one. You don't decide that, the feminists who hold her up as a positive example decide it.

The real question would be weather or not Femshep's status was intentional. Really what it could be is a matter of technical limitiations with having to have the same basic story and choices for both genders sort of forcing equality on the characters. If you look at saint's row 2 this kind of thing is underlined by that game even having a gender choice. If you have a female character in that game you basically have a female character doing all the stupid shit, saying all the stupid jokes, and having all the inane opinions that a male character would have because they changed none of the writing, they just had multiple voice actors/actresses deliver it. This makes for rather strange but entertaining results.

In mass effect things are more gender neutral except for the romance options so it's less hilariously weird, but still a nice change of pace to have a female character with no distinction from or second fiddling to a male counterpart, even if Bioware didn't set out to make a feminist statement.

Uhm....most of the people voting on Femshep's appearance probably aren't women, which is a large part of the problem. Also when you ask 'does it hurt anyone' it really sounds more like you are just dismissing things as 'it doesn't effect me'

You really don't have a strong enough argument to be dismissing the other side outright.

What does this comment, "it has become increasingly difficult to please women these days," have anything at all to do with this issue?

Rob: Because this is a non-issue and people are making it into one?

I don't know. I really don't see the problem with this. Then again, Jeffrey helped me realize that the majority of people who have a problem with this aren't even women, actually.

Which is kind of odd to me...

What? I'm convinced you don't understand either comment directed toward you.

What the hell are you even talking about? I said most of the people VOTING IN THE DECIDE FEMSHEPS APPEARANCE thing weren't female. Theirs people of all sorts who have every right to dislike the decision to put it to a vote.

Just calling this a non issue and being caustic about it does nothing but make you look confrontational and mean. Either come up with a worthwhile counter argument or leave it alone.

You seem determined to draw lines between men and women over everything with no real justification. Also, claiming it's a non-issue and criticising people for having issue with it kind of makes no sense at all. Obviously you're going to think it's a non-issue if you don't take issue with it. If someone else takes issue with it, then it's a goddamn issue.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just don't see the issue here. I don't really see what harm voting on the appearance of a fictional character has on women.

I just see this as blowing something way out of proportion.

If you don't see the issue then you need to educate yourself on it. Go find out why objectifying women is bad and come back.

and that's the exact reaction feminist thought gets in most male dominated circles. Which is why feminists expect more then 'I just don't think this is a big deal' in order for someone to qualify as having an actual discussion on the subject. Dismissing things isn't a discussion. Comments sections are for discussion of topics. So discuss or don't, but leave hand waving and pooh poohing the topic out of it.

"Would people even be close to bothered if they held a vote on a male Shepherd's looks? Does either practice really hurt anyone?"

Well, the point is that there ISN'T a vote on male Shepherd's looks. It's a vote on FemShep's looks. Which is completely symptomatic of the culture of judging a woman's worth by her appearance. So, actually, the two things aren't comparable.

And yes, the practice DOES hurt people - especially women, and especially women who play video games. Because it reinforces the tired old stereotype that women have to be 'hot' in order to be valid or popular characters. FemShep changed that, and now that progress is being undermined.

Also, posing a question and then answering it yourself (incorrectly) isn't the greatest form of discussion.

Yes, but we objectify men on a more constant basis than women. Where are your protests then?

[CITATION NEEDED]

Seriously mate, go do some research.

uhm....Firstly you are literally running through so many wrong headed anti feminist cliches that you are almost purposefully attacking your own argument. Secondly I protest about stupid potrayals of men all the time. For example: I don't like gears of war because everyone in it is a freaking steroid freak with the personality of a bag of dirt. But when you are the majority and you are potraying your group as the center of attention, super powerful, and an unstoppable force, then you don't get to act discriminated against. Especially when male characters are never treated as sex objects.  Generic action hero isn't only loved because he has abs and a big dick. He's loved because he kills dudes.

A: Please don't assume that my lack of consideration means a lack of knowledge. I live in the most liberal, feminist city in the country, so it's impossible for me to be uneducated on the subject of women's issues. In fact, there's a chance I might know more than you, seeing as how it was so forced upon me during college.

B: With that said, my objective nature gave me a new perspective on this whole business. To me, it seems that people are more conditioned to be upset over anything that could be seen as derogatory or offensive toward women -- no matter how petty. Things like these are prime examples.

We were having a discussion that was fairly reasonable about the subject before you came into things and called out Niall for writing the article at all. He was making a point and we were discussing the validity of that point. If this particular infraction by bioware isn't that big of a deal then it isn't that big of a deal but you can't take the high road now. You obviously have some standing issues with feminism that you felt like you should get off of your chest but maybe you shouldn't do it in such a disruptive way in the middle of an obviously feminist conversation.

I agree that some times feminist ideas can be blown out of proportion and become unreasonable but you came into a reasonable discussion and just basically were telling everyone they were stupid for being concerned. You obviously don't know that much about feminist thought if you think that anyone who subscribes to it would react positively to being accused of being irrational and reactionary.

Actually, it's quite clear from what you posted that you ARE uneducated on the 'subject of women's issues', or feminism as we like to call it when we're not trying to belittle it.

And it may hurt for you to admit to yourself, but you are NOT objective. And you don't have a 'unique' perspective, either. People with views like yours (female as well as male) are really very common.

In my view, this is not a 'petty' issue. And I'm sorry, but you don't get to be the judge of that. You, by definition, can never have actually EXPERIENCED what it feels like to be treated as a woman, especially by the video game industry.

And really, really don't try to tell me that there is even the SLIGHTEST chance that you know more than me about feminism. Trust me on this: from the evidence you've presented, YOU DON'T. I mean, the very fact that you say 'women's issues' were FORCED upon you implies that you don't actually care, and you resent even having them brought to your attention.

You need to go and educate yourself. Seriously.

I can see that a lot of people seem...overly passionate about this subject, to the point where anything I say will probably offend them. So I'm just going to stop.

Jeffrey: My bad if it seemed like I was trying to hijack the conversation. I suppose I didn't see the value of such a topic, so that was what I questioned. I won't be a bother anymore.

Please continue.

I would like to ask you one last time to go and find out why people are passionate about this subject. Clearly there are reasons why they find it so important. Maybe you would learn something if you tried to find out what those reasons were on your own initiative?

We aren't overly passionate about the subject we are defending against a wrong headed attack on our right to be passionate about it at all. You don't help your case by trying to make us seem unreasonable because YOU are the problem. Ask yourself what you did wrong here and then remember to never do it again. Thanks for not carrying on the conversation any longer at least.

I don't agree with Ryan at all (seeing as I made a writing challenge about good female characters in games), but I think this discussion is getting personal. Like Jeffrey said above there are a lot of discussions we could be having instead of this back and forward so please talk about them.

I agree with Chris.

There are some people here who seem to take this subject pretty personal so a dissenting opinion like mine would only upset them more.

Jeffrey got it: There are other discussions to be had on this topic. Especially ones where people don't get upset.

Kinda condescending but I'll take it if it means you're going to stop posting without listening to other people.

I too like Pop Tarts!

My favorite is cinnamon sugar. :D

I'd just like to say that I really resent having my (valid) opinions and arguments undermined with the whole 'women get upset and over-emotional lol' card.

You're clearly not open to an actual reasoned debate so I think I'm going to step outta this before I do actually get 'upset'.

Oh, and nice derailing, bro.

This feels like a test. This has to be a test from the other Bitmob guys.

Please stop talking down to people. I get an email every time you do and it's just irritating.

When I wrote "Like Jeffrey said above there are a lot of discussions we could be having instead of this back and forward so please talk about them" I meant it. I'm deleting any responses from any one who responds to this portion of the thread after this message. 

Hey man, no worries. You're alright in my book. :)

And I agree, a lot probably has to do more with the standards in which these models are judged, rather than the fact that Bioware made it a possibility.

It seems a lot like a gamer beauty pageant...and not many people like pageants these days to begin with.

One of the hurdles for this sort of thing is that you can't really judge intent. So sometimes judging the result comes across as more harsh when people don't subscribe to your particular understanding of the intent of the parties involved. I actually got into an argument with a feminist much more militant then I that broke up our online friendship over it. It's a shame.

I would hope that someone at Bioware is self aware enough to already be a bit uncomfortable about the result of this poll and be considering not doing similar polls in the future due to the result. Ultimately we can't judge how intentional this was until someone important adresses the issue directly or we judge the content of further mass effect marketing and the next game to see how well it jives with this strange misstep.

Haha, that's what I was about to say. Ah well. I haven't bought a Mass Effect game anyhow, so I don't have to worry about that.

I'm against the idea of disrespecting one of the strongest female characters in gaming by putting her physical appearance up for judgment and changing it to something that the public finds more appealing. It's less of an issue for the individual player and more of a symptom of the poor attitudes developers show to female characters in video games - often reducing them to their physical attributes and nothing else. See Ninja Gaiden, Mortal Kombat and Tomb Raider for more examples.

Niall, I agree with you in that I think BioWare should have stuck with the original FemShep, but it wasn't as if she wasn't already an "attractive" character.  The body armor would probably still have been tight on her.  The only thing that appears to have changed is her head.  I wouldn't be surprised if you can still choose her head upon startup.

I don't agree with the notion that she has been reduced to her physical attributes.  Physical attributes are all Shephard (both male and female) originally was, and all BioWare has given us since the first ME.  Whichever heroic or villainous feats Shephard has accomplished have ultimately been decided by the player.

Danny makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure why I didn't think about that to begin with, really.

If anything, the ability to let fans choose what the female Shepherd will look like can be directly related to the core gameplay mechanic: choice. It's sort of in the spirit of the entire franchise. Mass Effect has always been about choosing your own hero and making your own adventure, so it makes sense to let people choose their poster woman.

Except that they didn't extend that voting concept to the male shepard, thus making it a double standard. They base the male shepard off of an existing person, put him on every box, demo the gameplay at trade shows using him. The fan choice never really came in until they decided that they didn't want to spend the time to make femshep's default based on a real person, why not just do a crappy facebook poll and let the fans take responsibility for femshep's inclusion in marketing feeling half assed instead of just doing it ourselves.
 

All good points Jeffrey, but I can understand why Bioware isn't changing the default Male Shepard's appearance.  The default MaleShep has already been on a ton of posters and boxes for the games.

Sure, BioWare should have originally treated the original ME FemShep the same as her male counterpart and created her after the image of a real person.  It's too late for that now.  Even if they decided to do it at this point in the series, they'd either have to:

a) Find a model who looks similar to the default FemShep, and subsequently alter the character model to accurately replicate her appearance

b)  Choose a model and create a character in her image, regardless of how she looks in comparison to the default FemShep.

They chose neither, and just created a character model.  Either way, FemShep would've been judged by her appearance.

I think it's fair to say that if MaleShep's appearance was changed, there would be more of an uproar.  If they put MaleShep's character up for vote, it would still be based on his appearance.  He'd still have tight armor, a wide back, and a chiseled jaw, but no one would say it's misandrous.

KOTOR and Halo: Reach went about this the right way by not having the main character on the box art.  The again those stories were more about the world and characters around the protagonist, whereas Commander Shepard is the central figure in the ME games.

As I mentioned before, people would still be upset even if MaleShep was changed.  I think this issue has less to do with misandry, misogyny and gender stereotypes, and more to do with changing a well established character.

Well the fact that Femshep fans are being appeased but being appeased poorly compared to the standard set by the male shepard and the fact that the voting has a lot of negative assosiations due to the meat market esque comments of some of the voters is the real overall problem. Unfortunately none of that is anything that can be undone at this point.

By "none of that" do you mean man's instinct to objectify women?

Because you would be very correct.
 

Yeah, keep making smart alec comments. Really helping your image. *nyaa*

Also instinct is no excuse for ignorant behavior. We have a society because we demand more of people then nature demands.

If Bioware were to have us vote on a new MaleShep, I'd vote for whichever character looked coolest to me, and I wouldn't think twice about it.  The comments would probably look something like "I like #2 'cause he looks badass" or something, and this article probably wouldn't have been written.

.. but God forbid we vote on a female character because of her appearance.

I'm not trying to troll, and I apologize if I come off the wrong way.  I just don't think that we should blame BioWare for the reasons people are voting, especially when appearance is all BioWare can offer.

I'll reiterate that I think BioWare should've just kept the original FemShep, but we'd be upset by ANY new default Shep, regardless of gender.

I happen to be a firm believer that instinct is the perfect excuse for most people's erratic (and natural) behavior. Common emotions, desires, and actions can usually be linked directly towards a sex's instinct.

With that said, men have the natural urge to both objectify women and judge them based on their appearance. It's not always the right thing in certain cases, but it is the unsurprising thing.

It's also the reason why women continue to fix themselves up and look nice, because our desire for them coincides directly with their instinct to be desired.

It's an odd, hypocritical dance we're doing: Us fighting our programming, yet trying so desperately to adhere to these unwritten codes of conduct that exist within this society.

You're talking to a person who largely believes that outside of some basic biological programming gender identity is a performance forced on us by society's expectations and peer pressure.

I believe if it wasn't for people's upbringing strictly enforcing this kind of behavior their would be more reasonable thought put into our actions when it comes to our role vis a vi the opposite sex.

Their are some biological urges that make up the foundation but trust me when I say my personal experience has shown that most behaviors are learned. So I think acting as if this stuff has to happen and will never change is ignorant. All we have to do is WANT it to change and it will with time.

Why are so many people determined to believe that women 'fix themselves up' to look nice for men? That's the core belief behind victim-blaming in rape cases (which is wrong, just FYI), and pushing that belief is only going to tell game companies that objectifying women to sell copies is acceptable (which it isn't). As Jeffrey said, things aren't going to change if you just sit back and make excuses for sexism, rather than finding and listening to people who are actually affected by it.

Jeffrey: I too believe that some preferences or behaviors within the sexes are societal constructs. Heck, a lot of it is fact; girls weren't even originally raised to prefer the color pink, boys were. But there are some things that we just can't escape, and probably won't until this "singularity" thing happens and we're all machines or something. If it weren't for a lot of these natural instincts, we wouldn't be where we are today, with a population of almost 7 billion and technology that baffles our grandparents.

Video Games are a perfect example of the male instinct to compete. It's hard to argue that without this instinct, we wouldn't be here on this site, having this very conversation. These things do exist, and affect the progress of society and our daily lives more than people like to admit.

Niall: Because a lot of them do. One could argue that some women fix themselves up with regards to their own confidence, of course, but a lot of them do so because their instinct is bound to optimizing themselves esthetically to attract a mate.

What we're talking about here revolves around male fantasy, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. No women are being hurt by such fantasies, any more than men are being hurt by the romantic fantasies of women. I myself am not amorous by instinct, so does that give me the right to be offended or feel objectified whenever I see some romantic comedy where the male character is used as nothing more than a means to fulfill women's romantic fantasies? Of course it does, but that still won't change their instinct. Instead, I just accept it and work with it.

We sort of have been working with each other's instincts and fantasies for...oh, well over 10,000 years. I think perhaps we can get over a little vote on some non-existent woman's physical appearance.

And be careful there when using the word "rape" within a discussion. I know it's easy to throw that word out there to give power to the topic of women's oppression, but that word has its own meaning and implications behind it. We're talking about voting on a nonexistentant video game female, not forcing sex on someone. Those are two COMPLETELY different things and I think you should be a little wearier of their definitions.

I spent the first half of my life terrified of competition. To this day the idea of competing with others gives me more anxiety then it gives me satisfaction. I personally get a bigger buzz out of helping people in team games then I do out of beating someone in a competitive game *though the instinct is still there to an extent* I dunno. outside of basic sexual urges and basic physical limitations I am not really aware of what parts of my psyche are and aren't defined by gender. I just think that it's reductive and pointless to claim that anything about gender or about anything else is across the board true. If theirs one thing the human condition never fails to show it's that there is an exception to every rule.

I really think rape talk does have no particular merit in this discussion. I also don't think weather or not women make themselves look pretty to satisfy men is relevant either. The real point of this discussion is that putting femshep's appearance to a vote is not reaching the audience of people who are fans of the character as much as it is reaching the audience of people who like talking about video game character hotness. This suggests that maybe such votes in the future aren't a good move if you want a character to be taken seriously. Regardless of Bioware's intent or of people's right to say what they will about their opinions on the looks of women I think it was a misstep and dillutes the character. I also think that you can apologize for male hormones all you want, but nothing can apologize for how creepy and disrespectful internet talk about women and gender issues can get.

How does good looks or an emphasis on physical attractiveness dilute anyone, character or not? Why is it that some people believe you can either be pretty and bland or intellectual and deep? It seems like a different kind of modern indoctrination to me.

Just because someone admires someone's physical appearance at any point and time doesn't mean the rest of their judgment criteria is based on that alone.

My girlfriend is a pretty smart gal, and also incredibly attractive (a lot more than I am).

It doesn't dillute a character to be attractive. It dillutes a character for that attractiveness to be the only distinguishing characteristic that average players know about the character. See DOA. There is actually some good characterization in the DOA games. Still the focus was on making the chicks hot and slutty looking so no one really cares about them as characters.

The point is that femshep was just being paid attention to in the marketing at all. Some players barely even noticed there was a female option in mass effect games outside of talking about potential lesbianism. Then when Bioware finally pays attention to femshep it's a half hearted effort compared to the male shepard, and this vote makes the appearance of the character end up being largely decided by dudebros talking about how hot she is. It's frustrating for people who cared about the character before this to see the overall image of the character go downhill. Same thing happened with the zero suit samus debacle.

Jeffrey, read Danny's above comments. Shepherd is a mere vessel, a husk, and his/her depth is solely dependent on the player. There is no dilluting the character at all because there is no character to dillute. All we have is physical attributes. Is Shepherd, noble? Is he/she selfless? Such characteristics are unbound to the image of Shepherd, therefore bringing up whether or not they're underminded by emphasis on looks is pointless. Again, I ask where the issue lies with the physical characteristics of a fictional woman being decided by the core demographic of the game: men. There is no actual woman, nor a personal, in-depth persona being decided here. It almost seems to me like you're trying to find things to make into an issue. Men and women have had the ability to make their own idealized versions of the opposite sex for years via the same character creators like in Mass Effect. I don't see how democratizing the process is any worse.

I honestly don't see the point of people weighing in on this issue who don't care about it and don't see it's impact. I mean the reason why we are discussing it is because this type of double standard stuff doesn't have many people talking about it and needs more visability. To go up to the few people talking about it and say that you aren't worried about it isn't really giving any new information.
 

The problem with this specific issue isn't about gameplay or canon (thats an entirely new set of problems to consider.) the problem is that when bioware finally started paying positive attention to femshep in marketing for the first time the marketing push ended up coming across as pandering to the horny guy demographic. A demographic that is well served without this sort of thing and who is unlikely to use the character to begin with.

The character does not have to be 'canon' to be important to female and feminist gamers because she is important enough as a rallying cry that more gamers want the choice to play as females in games without those female characters only existing as male stroke fantasies. When Bioware lets marketing slip by that makes the character look like it was meant to satisfy horny guys it undermines that message and hurts feminism in games. If Bioware isn't going to do the right thing and set a good example against gender stereotyping what makes you think low end game companies desperate for an audience won't take the easy sex appeal way out?

In case it gets lost, I replied to you below but forgot to post it as a reply. Too lazy to copy/paste/have it come out as a 1-foot long column on my browser.

So I tell you that the problem isn't about gameplay or canon  and bring up a completely different argument and you continue to talk about gameplay and canon? If you aren't going to listen to my argument and respond to that argument then we aren't really having a debate.

I'm not trying to debate you, I'm trying to have a conversation with you where I ask you to actually consider what I'm trying to say. You might not say it's important, but I'm trying to show you why it might be, and you're just ignoring my points without responding to them. The canon thing isn't even the whole part of my argument.

Do you not want to respond to the fact that I pointed out that most people don't play the default characters and that Bioware is not taking away the choice to play as a custom female character? Don't accuse me of not listening when you aren't going to respond to my points, either.

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to have a discussion with you. You don't need to criticise me, I'm on YOUR SIDE about this issue. I'm not saying it's not an important issue, I'm trying to show you why video games in general and ME specifically are better equipped to deal with this issue than a non-interactive medium would be. Gameplay and canon ARE important things to consider.

I considered what you tried to say, and then decided that considering the original nature and focus of the post the actual gameplay and canon of mass effect is pretty much irrelevant to a discussion about a marketing misstep.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful I'm trying to keep the discussion of this issue focused on the actual issue without bogging the entire discussion down in needless minutia and frustratingly pointless side arguments.

This discussion has been side tracked like. 20 times without many people seriously acknowledging half of the things the original people discussing the original topic have to say so I don't think I'm being unreasonable to attempt to draw attention to the argument that is the reason the post even exists to begin with.

Even if femshep isn't canon it doesn't change how her supporters feel about the character and how the marketing decision negatively impacts the character. So I want to get back to the original discussion.

Even if default femshep isn't used by most femshep players the idea of femshep's representation in an international marketing campaign being decided by people who are voting based on attractiveness is still a frustrating and offensive concept to many people. Thus that particular side discussion is irrelevant and would only lead to more pointless arguments about unrelated topics.

If you are on my side stop bringing up arguments that seem designed to distract attention from the core issue of discussion and just say how you feel about the marketing decision.

For example: I was talking about how the marketing decision could have not been meant as pandering but the internet is just full of creepers who see everything as sexual. Do you think that people who do marketing for games should design their marketing campaigns specifically to avoid or moderate internet lewdness?

This is an instance where I wish Bitmob had forums. That way, these discussions would be far more organized and the page wouldn't get so cluttered.

To respond: I realize that the post is simply about  a marketing issue, but in bringing up the points that I did, I was trying to expand the discussion. I'm not trying to derail the discussion, I'm trying to enrich it by bringing up other aspects which I believe to be relevant and important. For that, I suppose I apologize.

The other reason why I've gone off on what you see as an irrelevant tangent is because the core issue (marketing) seems to be rather cut and dry. Yes, it's terrible that they put six supermodels up for vote and terrible that the world will see FemShep not as the feminist icon but as oversexualized eye candy. It's bad marketing. That issue is simple, which is why I didn't particularly want to talk about it.

I wanted to talk about gameplay and canon, because they deal with the interactive nature of video games and our personal experiences. Reading the blurb on your profile page, I figured that you, of all people, might be interested in a discussion like this. If you'd rather continue rehashing the surface issue of bad marketing, I'm sure you're aware that there are about a million comments at the top of the discussion that you could reply to. I wasn't aware that we had a strictly on-topic discussion policy.

Eh. I just am personally sick of fielding a bunch of stuff in this particular comments section that has next to nothing to do with the core debate. Wanting to expland the discussion is fine in theory but in practice it's impossible to frame in the point of the basic discussion and takes attention away from the article which deserves respect for what the writer took time to try and accomplish and draw attention to. Also I've brought up plenty of points about the issue at hand that have real merit in discussing in my opinion. Weather or not I'm 'rehashing' in your opinion is up to you to decide but is really subjective.

If you want to continue talking about the particular issues you were talking about feel free to write an article yourself as you have already pratically done so in the large amount of detail you put into your posts. You could even have a look around at the many other feminist articles that already exist on the site (some written by me.) That may be more relevant to the current thing you wish to discuss.

I'm not really saying bitmob has a strict one topic policy as much as i'm saying that this article has 72 comments and way too few of them are about the original topic at hand and way too many of them are me trying to talk about the discussion at hand and being bewildered at why people bring up other things LOL. It's gotten to the point where I and maybe 2 other people may be the only ones who have read every last one of these and so the discussion is only going to get more fractured and confusing the more we go off topic. This blocks people who might otherwise want to from weighing in on their opinion of the basic core issue of the post. 

I also apologize to anyone who think's I've been posting too much and derailing things too much on the flip side. I tend to be a bit of a motor mouth (motor fingers?) myself when I get passionate about a specific issue or conversation.

I made a point to read all of the comments before I posted one. I just figured that the marketing discussion was done and felt no need to chime in when everything had been said.

I actually did start to write an article on a subject similar to this: funnily enough, it was a guide on how to assess female characters. There are different types of strong female characters: there are those who embrace their feminine side and use it to get power, and there are those who embrace masculine characteristics in order to achieve the same end, and both of those have interesting things to say about what it means to be female.

This issue is so much deeper than whether or not characters are too attractive or not.

I say finish that article. Would be interesting to see your opinion on it and that particular discussion would be better served with having it's own set of topics and reference points and it's own focused comments section for discussion. I would probably end up in the comments section of it weighing in as well if I didn't get distracted by some other shiny object in the distance.

Oh, and sorry about the necro. Just realized I'm 2 weeks late on this one.

^Pretty much that.^