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Games as Ebert: Was Roger Trolling?
Friday, April 23, 2010

THREEVIEWS

One topic. Three opinions. One author. 

The "Video Games as Ebert Art" debate has, for some, been played out. For others the discussion has really only just begun. "We", Kevin John Frank, examine movie critic Roger Ebert's role in this debate as compared to our own industry pundits.

Frank calls Ebert's commentary "ill-informed at best, troll-tastic at worst." Kevin feels some of Ebert's points "miss the mark but ring true on the whole." John claims that Ebert's opinion of games should be considered just a "voice among many".


FRANK: We've been trolled.

After reading Roger Ebert's original 2005 blog proclamation that games can't be art I was inclined to believe that his narrow opinion of video games was just that, an opinion. Strengthening that belief was Ebert's fair sampling of dissenting opinions distilled from the overwhelming number of responses to his comments. My take away was that this critic believed what he said and articulated it as best he could given his limited exposure to video games. 
 
Your Movie SucksIn 2007 Ebert took on Clive Barker's counter argument presented at the Hollywood & Games Summit keynote address. In his blog response Ebert admitted to being rash with his previous 2005 indictment, but his unwillingness to give games a college try, while still deigning to discuss them, was troubling.
 
He wrote to Barker, "What I should have said is that games could not be high art, as I understand it. How do I know this? How many games have I played? I know it by the definition of the vast majority of games. They tend to involve (1) point and shoot in many variations and plotlines, (2) treasure or scavenger hunts, as in "Myst," and (3) player control of the outcome. I don't think these attributes have much to do with art; they have more in common with sports."
 
Equating videogames to sports and generalizing most games as either shooters or collect-a-thons seemed reductionist, but on the whole the debate was intelligible, if not one-sided. N'Gai Croal's own Level Up 'fisking' of the Ebert vs Barker match-up deftly dissected the problems with most of Ebert's reasoning but two points stood out.
 
Ebert doesn't play games and therefore doesn't review them -- well, not often anyway. I started to question whether his disdain of most games as unworthy of serious consideration -- or play time even -- was undermining his critical voice. Despite that inkling, I let it go because everyone has a right to their opinion. 
 
Then along came a tweet with a link to Ebert's latest blog post, "Video games can never be art". Flamebait if I ever saw it, but I reserved judgment and started to read. 
 
Upon finishing Ebert's rebuttal of Kellee Santiago's earnest and insightful, if meandering, musings on an industry of which she is actually a part of, I felt totally trolled. He spent the first half of the article condescending to Santiago's grasp of art history and insinuating that his sense of taste was better than most. When Ebert finally got around to discussing her example games - Waco Resurrection, Braid & Flower -- he laid bare to anyone in-the-know that he is not someone in-the-know when it comes to gaming.
 
Somehow I still wanted to give Ebert the benefit of the doubt; mainly because his piece was still lucid and well written. I proceeded to refresh myself on the past articles and see if there was something I might have missed. While scouring the archives and following the threads of this tale I came to a shocking realization. 
 
Ebert believes that even when measured using his own 'opposing thumbs', most films are not art either. "Your Movie Sucks", his book and blog section, relies heavily on this sentiment. One of his favorite quotes by fellow film critic Pauline Kael also echoes this belief. "The movies are so rarely great art, that if we cannot appreciate great trash, we have no reason to go."
 
Why then was Ebert again painting all games as unworthy if he already believed the same thing about most films? Why was he rehashing a topic of which he knows nothing of consequence when he had already said everything he could dare say? Why couldn't he admit there might be even a handful of games that could be considered art? 
 
Hits, of course. The amount of response Ebert's frank comments garnered the first time he posted this edgy viewpoint may have actually surprised him. The next time, his after-the-fact tango with Barker seemed basically justified because Barker openly put him to task. But Santiago only dropped his name in passing and this current tirade did nothing but make Ebert look ill-informed at best, troll-tastic at worst.
 
For me the most inflammatory and insulting part of the article was Ebert's challenging rhetoric in his conclusion. "Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art?"
 
Why are we concerned? Really!? It's a silly question. People fight against your position on this because of your dismissal of a medium that has deeply affected them. If Ebert were some random curmudgeon on a message board or blog it wouldn't matter, but he isn't. He's "important". People listen to Ebert.
 
As one of the 3700+ commenters on his latest traffic driver put it "I'm sure MANY theater critics panned film at it's inception, but how many continued to pan film without ever watching one?" If there were critics that still had this modus operandi I don't think it would be a stretch to call their style "trolling".
 

KEVIN: It seems we still need to refine our skill, focus and critical voice as an industry.

When a non-gaming critic like Roger Ebert approaches this topic I can't help but feel like the old guard of media is passing judgment on our fledgling industry. In Ebert's case this isn't exactly true though. 
 
Ebert has often embraced the "new" and championed emerging trends in media. He currently communicates his critical views via an Internet web blog for instance. True that it is largely out of necessity, but I believe that even his proximity to this technology adds to his relevance and credibility. 
 
Where other critics have panned oft-maligned media like comics or animation he has embraced them. However he hasn't given them a free pass. Ebert is not opposed to gaming he just feels that, as they are now, video games have not shown the caliber of legitimate art.
 
I certainly do not agree entirely with Ebert's approach. Some of the problem appears to be semantics. Also, his admitted lack of game knowledge makes him ill-suited to offer deep criticism of this medium. To be fair though, since his first feedback commentary in 2005 on this topic, Ebert has conceded that games might be art, but they are just not high art. 
 
Throughout his various diatribes Ebert has posited two valid arguments that stand outside his experience with video games. The first is that games are interactive and it is this interactivity that makes the act of playing a game preclude it's existence as high art as we know it.
 
He writes "Video games by their nature require player choices, which is the opposite of the strategy of serious film and literature, which requires authorial control. I am prepared to believe that video games can be elegant, subtle, sophisticated, challenging and visually wonderful. But I believe the nature of the medium prevents it from moving beyond craftsmanship to the stature of art."
 
The second argument is more of a challenge -- one that cannot be easily overcome given the matter-of-fact nature of the first argument. Ebert has repeatedly cited that no one has or will be able to provide a gaming corollary for the greats from other accepted artistic disciplines, at least not in our lifetime. 
 
He says "No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers."

I agree with the premise of both of these arguments against games as art. Games aren't art; they are something other than art but just as poignant and impactful. It is the interactivity of games that sets them uniquely apart from conventional art and thereby demands an evolved lexicon to describe them. Communicating why interaction elevates games beyond craftsmanship is the semantic problem. 

Given the newness of the medium the industry's own critical opinions are arguably just as juvenile. Games reviewers and critics often stumble when trying to convey why a game is "good, bad or arty" even when addressing their core audience. It seems we still need to refine our critical voice as an industry. There needs to be a way to evoke the craft of game design and development in a way that is just as understandable as movie making, composing, painting, writing, or dance.
 
As for worthiness, even "great" games such as Ico, Portal, and Flower cannot deny their essential game-ness. When debating with someone who doesn't play games, the standard definitions of appreciation do not always apply. We cannot hope to have a non-gamer understand the medium without first trying it hands-on. That means getting them to want to try it. To ensure this happens we need to ease barriers to entry.
 
I am not endorsing the dumbing down of games, but for many reasons video games are often inscrutable. Accessibility and comprehension can definitely be improved. Game critics are our ambassadors at the gate. They have the best shot at changing the public opinion. 
 
In his response to Kellee Santiago's TED talk Ebert asks, perhaps rhetorically, why gamers care to have games considered as art at all. I believe the contention for game creators, critics and players is that we want to be taken seriously by the world at large. The majority of the gaming milieu is not yet "general admittance" despite casual gaming's in-roads. Grasping for the brass ring of art seems like an obvious path to this mass acceptance.
 
However, we seem compelled to emulate our big brother film when we should be embracing and touting our unique strengths as games. That's why Ebert's appraisal misses the mark but rings true on the whole. The real nugget of truth I see in this very astute man's criticism is that what we need to do is become better at showing what games are made of, not how we are like movies. 
 
Maybe we won't achieve "art status" in our lifetime but perhaps that shouldn't be the goal. With or without mainstream or elite acceptance, if we acknowledge our shortcomings and strive toward excellence, in the next forty years, we can create and promote our own distinct masterpieces.
 
Instead of putting our energy into convincing the high art critics of the world how great we are, let's use a tact even Ebert can get behind; "Show me, don't tell me."
 

JOHN: Game critics are key to fostering an environment of artistic relevance. Roger Ebert is not.

There are enough creators, developers, and reviewers within the games industry that believe games are not art that I don't think it is necessary to demonize a relative outsider for holding this belief.
 
Ebert's is just one voice among many, and a respected one at that. But for every dissenting voice there is another that can champion the cause.
 
Kellee Santiago's TED talk opened with the assertion that 
games are already art. Her talk wasn't pitch perfect but, as per TED's mission statement, it was still an idea worth spreading.
 
I believe that the essence of her presentation was a reminder and call to action for those of us that understand that "games are art", encouraging developers to make more games that highlight potential artistry. Just as important though was her attempt to relate to a non-gamer audience. 
 
Although it was also her goal to "engage people outside of the "choir" to come to their own conclusions", I think she did her argument a disservice by evoking Ebert's name. Is there not a plethora of excellent game critics whose thoughts might have been used to sway the crowd? 
 
Unfortunately this is another instance where the game industry shows it's young age. How many outside of the "choir" know these commentators by name? Still this lack of notoriety shouldn't stop us from looking to our own pundits when reflecting on the relevance and impact of games.
 
Kotaku's Stephen Totillo spent a lot of words in his recent response to Ebert trying to frame himself as a peer before telling the movie critic to mind his own business; movie criticism. However I think his strongest point was made early in the article when he said
"Defending video games as an art form...[is] like a 26-year-old trying to convince his parents that he's a grown-up."
He's right. We shouldn't have to prove anything. We only need to be what we already are: authoritative specialists that can shape our own future.
 
Edge's N'Gai Croal has been linked to this debate with Ebert as well, but he also has his own strong views about the industry's ability to create and discuss their art. When asked in a 2007 Game Critic interview why developers aren't more vocal about defending video games as artistic expression he replied that
"Developers themselves are either inarticulate about the artistic nature of their games, unsure about whether their games are truly artistic, or both. They're inarticulate about their artistry because the vocabulary surrounding their craft is both highly specialized and incomplete. They're unsure about their artistry because video games aren't a long-established medium, like painting or sculpture, and video games aren't primarily a narrative medium, like the novel or film. This results in a fairly narrow, impoverished conversation about games in the public sphere."
It would appear as though game critics are key to fostering an environment of artistic understanding and relevance. Unfortunately much of games writing often focuses on the style of previews and reviews that may as well have fallen out of a press kit. 
 
Genuine, quality games criticism is a rarer breed. It's certainly not as widespread as mainstream criticism is for books, movies and music. It's no wonder we often look to outsiders for approval, but this need for acceptance rubs many gamers the wrong way. And rightly so.
 
G4's Adam Sessler mounted his Soapbox to address Ebert's post, but surprisingly he didn't entirely disagree with him. However, his rant was nonetheless supportive of gaming.
"It's not that important that we turn video games into art...There is a lot of value in video games and we don't need to look to...those people in the ivory tower, those people who are caretakers of all that is important in culture to actually deem it worthy. It is worthy by virtue of it's own success." 
Gamasutra contributor/EA designer Jeff Preston's 2008 response to a lesser known Ebert attack on games -- a Hitman review no less -- offered this advice:
"My suggestion to my fellow gamers is not to piss on Roger Ebert, as tempting as that may be. Instead of adopting a philosophical or aesthetic strategy, we should adopt a political one. Even if I thought Ebert had a coherent conception of art, there is little to be gained by engaging him in an essentialist debate. Instead, we should...focus on creating the conditions in which video games can be viewed as art."
Gamasutra's Features Director Christian Nutt refines this notion by suggesting that the "is-it-art" question is not the point and need not be answered with a silver bullet solution. He proposes a new approach that is more subtle and incremental. Nutt says
"Rather than worrying that you can't turn your licensed kids' platformer or space marine murder simulator into art, think about what you can do to make its creative palate a little bit more expansive; to make its characters and dialogue a little less stupid; to make more concessions to an audience just a smidge wider than your marketing-decreed target."
Perhaps if we listen to our own experts and critics, even if games do not become universally acknowledged as an art form, we will eventually discover the ways in which games can transcend the question of  "Are games art?" altogether. That's a future that can happen whether Roger Ebert agrees or not.
 

You've read "our" views. What is your perspective? Give "us" your feedback.

Kevin John Frank is a writer and critic of games and perhaps art, if ever the twain shall meet.

Contact him at quippster at gmail[dot]com or on Twitter @quipp.

 
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Comments (8)
Me
April 23, 2010


I think the problem everyone is having with comprehending this debate is considering what we mean by "art." No, there is no single, concrete definition devoid of personal aesthetics. We, human beings, recognize art when we see it, and by weight of that overwhelming consensual opinion the judgment is laid down upon an object, whether it be painting, sculpture, book, poem, or film - but those are judgments that cut across huge boundaries of language, culture, and time. I don't think everyone is adequately considering this.



One of the common facets of the objects that inspire this collective opinion is the ability of a piece to inspire intellectual or emotional reactions that resonate and lead to other intellectual or emotional reactions related to, but not necessarily the same as, the initial reaction.



Name me one video game that has done this to you.  One.  Don't engage in hyperbole, or seek to justify an argument that video games are art. Speak to one video game that has made you weep for its beauty. Speak to one gaming experience that has transcended the actual act of gaming and left you a different person for the experience. This is the sort of thing "art" usually does to a person.



Name one video game.

 





I've been gaming for 32 years, and I can't think of one. Video games have shocked me, amused me, amazed me, but they've never really "touched" me. I've never seen a video game that has had something deep to say. Some of the examples I've read about "games" that have that depth, like Jason Rohrer's "Passage" (which I would debate is even a game, but for sake of argument...), are not "deep." What is the message behind "Passage?" That death is inevitable? Is that really deep such that we're going to call it "art?"



Video games have an artistry to their construction - but that's not the same as their being "art." "Artistry" refers to the skill of carrying out a task. I can "artfully" make a BLT in the kitchen, but I'm not making "art."



Rogert Ebert made a concession - games might be art someday, but they're not right now. That's a marked step forward from "games will never be art." I also think he's correct.


Default_picture
April 23, 2010


"He writes "Video games by their nature require player choices, which is the opposite of the strategy of serious film and literature, which requires authorial control."



C'mon, someone tell that man to read some Barthes already.


Alexemmy
April 24, 2010


Great write-up of the whole debacle, and clever angle in which to do so.


Default_picture
April 24, 2010
@Dennis Scimeca: Shadow of the Colossus?

I'm a huge fan of cinema and literature, and I was an english lit major, but I have to say that "weeping for the beauty" of my favorite art in those media would itself be hyperbole. But being moved, being inspired, yes. One thing that games can do in a more interesting way than most other media is create a unique atmosphere and tone, because every part of them is constructed from the ground up by designers, and they always work to immerse the player in that atmosphere. I could write a whole list of games that do this well, but SotC is the probably the pick that most people have played and can agree on.
April 24, 2010


@Dennis I could give older examples but I am going with a current one. Mass Effect 2. For me that game is art. There are many reasons why, but I'll give an example; Samara's loyalty mission. (Spoilerish)



 



The investigation and lead up to the finale were really well done but it was the pay-off -- choosing between Samara or Morinth (although this doesn't happen for everyone who plays this scene) -- that blew my mind and made me think long and hard -- as in put down the controller, go for a smoke and brood for ten minutes -- about my choice. By comparison, a movie plot containing the same scene and outcome(s) would have just been par for the course. My personal interactivity and involvement with the characters made that moment and many others touching and artful.



Games do things differently than movies or literature but if being emotionally impactful is a necessity to being deemed art then IMO games have already proven they can hang with the big boys.   


Me
April 24, 2010


@KJF Thankfully, I've done that loyalty mission so you didn't spoil anything for me. :P



That's a good example, actually. I had that experience with deciding who to assign to what task on the suicide mission, because I didn't want anyone to die. I actually put down the controller and thought it through out loud while my wife (who watched throughout the entire first run of the game for the story) kept saying "What's the problem? Just choose?"



That was not an emotionally *resonant* experience with me, however, and that is the key point I think Ebert might harp on. Those sets of choices were a finite experience that was emotionally charged for me at the time, but now they are just a memory.



Note how you describe that moment on an emotional basis - "touching." Many things "touch" us, but they aren't art, and I would hazard that the reason why something which touches us emotionally doesn't automatically constitute art is due to the singular, non-resonant nature of those experiences.



The Mona Lisa is something that inspires deep reactions in people not just the first time they see it, but the fifth, the hundredth, the thousandth time. Same person seeing the art, same piece of art, but the reactions are deep and sublime and resonant. I guess that's why the Mona Lisa is "art" and only someone playing Devil's Advocate is going to argue the point.



@ Chris - Same point to you about SotC. It may have provided an immersive atmosphere but you, but was your experience emotionally or intellectually resonant? Yes, you remember that experience the same way I remember the Bionic Commando Hitler reveal, but does SotC inspire deeper thoughts within you about life, love, the human experience, the soul, anything similarly complex or thoughful...or do you just have pleasant memories or the enthralling experience you had while playing the game?



I think that when Ebert made that poorly-worded comment "I'm too well read for video games," he probably meant that because he has had these sorts of resonant, deep experiences with art, that the bar was set very high for him in terms of what was capable of inspiring a similar reaction in him, be it book, film, piece of music, painting, sculpture, or video game.



I can only really speak to this in terms of film, but before I went to film school my bar was set really low per what a good movie was, because I didn't know any better. Then I spent three years taking theory courses, and was introduced to Fellini, and Bergman, and Eisenstein, and Tarkovsky, and Jarmusch, and all these film makers whose work I don't necessary enjoy watching but whose artistry I recognized whether I liked it or not...and now I know the difference between film that is "art," and movies that aren't.



That doesn't mean I don't like "movie" anymore - I can't wait to see Iron Man 2, but it's not going to be a work of art. It's going to be a piece of entertainment. "The Bicycle Thief" by Vitorrio de Sica is art. My reactions go beyond the visual and auditory information being presented to me by the film. "Avatar" is not art - I said "Wow, that looked awesome!" when I walked out of the 3D digital projection theater, but had no need to ever experience the movie again because the story sucked, and that visceral reaction to the high F/X standard isn't something that resonates.



Don't know if that helps or not...

Default_picture
May 03, 2010


@KJF: I like all three perspectives, but I'd go with the Frank one. I haven't digested it all the way, being it was at the end of a long article, but I don't see what the big deal is in trying to bring in a film critic, or any non-game critic for that matter, into validating video games as High Art.



For one, I argue that anyone who claims to speak cogently about High Art is usually only intelligible to other uppity-ups in that same medium's High Art, and anyone who thinks they understand what those uppity ups are saying are either uppity-ups themselves or wannabe-followers. Not that both are necessarily bad, just that what they understand and say should only really be relevant to their own communities and the context they understand.



Likewise, I suggest pursuing something akin to a video-game community version of a revolution in thought. Simply put, we define when what we've got is "our" medium's High Art, and leave it to "outsiders" to try and figure out what it all means.



Or not even worry about the High Art issue at all. Isn't High Art kind of an intellectual snobbery thing? Can't we be satisfied with merely demonstrating the basic artistic power of video games, of any interactive medium, to communicate abstract ideas from one mind or group of minds to another? A power that is basically inherent in the purpose of all media and even genre?



If people want to talk about the High Art of video games, let them. Sometimes even I don't feel like trying to high-falutin' intellectualize with someone really getting abstract about a game I actually like. But sometimes I do. And even if I were to end up going off the deep end High Arting video game this and that, that doesn't mean I'd be right trying to evaluate another medium for its High Art value, or that I'd even make sense to try.



Although if pressed, I'd say that critical techniques from non-video-game media  are still applicable to video games wherever video games borrow heavily from the appropriate medium. Video games attempt cinematic techniques, orchestra and choreography, even line and color, shade and hue of paint and composition, sculpture. These are probably easily demonstrated and where visible can be attacked with the critical tools established for those media.



And yet there'd still be that new stuff that interactivity brings, that complicating factor that is audience participation, or even lack thereof as digital agents operate bits and pieces of games for us despite player input, or if procedural generation and AI-related content creation comes about, even developer input. This is probably where it gets the most exciting, trying to figure out not just how all the older media borrowing and integration can be interpreted and critiqued, but in figuring out what the new stuff that machine interactivity brings to the table.



Here I say that video game High Art comes from the developer-designer's mastery of the conceptual space to shape the range of possible ways the player can interact, to essentially show what it means to set the boundaries of a complex abstraction in exacting detail so that despite the audience's illusion of freedom, there's always this boundary that cannot be broken without changing the content or ultimately the code.



But it's also a negotiation between the player and designer, a qualitatively advanced form of collaboration between artist and audience, and so much as High Art is about snobbery and separating the intellectual elite from the masses, video games can only really do that as a function of how they're built at the border between gamer-friendly and not, maybe somewhere where casual gamer as understood today blurs into "harder" gamers and their respective games.



Then there's also the argument that High Art cannot be commercial, is anti-commercial, is all about the pure expression of the artist (as in a singular auteur to borrow a term), with no taint from the audience. Well, there's nothing stopping this pursuit of High Art in video games except the technical hurdles of learning the digital language of the medium and the limits of what it can do.



Or perhaps it's the argument that High Art is about saying to everyone else: we're pioneers at the edges of the possible uses, the limits of control of our medium. In that case, I suppose I could concede that as computers constantly get faster, potentially outrunning our capability to truly tap out its creative potential, then there's no way to claim that same definition of High Art for video games without enabling computers to be the conduits, the creators of this version of High Art, as they would be poised to process fast enough to keep up with the development of the technology that interactive digital media is built on.



And that's just scratching the surface. Point is, while there's no need to burn bridges, we don't need to take what outsiders say about video games as art as the end-all word. They're input, like Frank's position: one voice among many. What's important is what we as "insiders" say about video games as art, whether or not we even care how high an art it is.



Personally, at the end of the day, all I care about is being entertained for the day-to-day, having my thoughts expanded now and then by something mindblowing, and on the rare occasion, be witness to truly pushing the boundaries of what video games can communicate as well as the limits of what video games can process and show.



Finally, I think there's a much better question to ask than "are video games high art?" or even "are video games art?":



Have video games shown that they can communicate ideas that cannot be communicated in other media? If they have, then already the medium has suggested its necessity. If what it uniquely communicates is judged valuable, then it has also proven its unique value.



Going a step further: have video game communicated ideas "better" than how the same ideas are communicated in other media? This is a thornier issue, since it starts to bring up comparison and implies a threat to obsoleting other media. Perhaps not now, but sometime in the future it's conceivable that the conceptual space taken up by video games as a medium and its range of expressive power actually threatens cinema, documentary, novels, poetry, orchestral music, dance choreography, whatever have you, but for now, it's a possible observation that proponents of traditional/older media may feel their pet medium threatened to change or become obsolete, and the only thing they can do is rail against "progress".



On that latter part, I rather hope not. I don't like seeing anything obsoleted if at some point it ever worked and worked well. More likely interactivity and game-like design will transform older media, absorbing them into its maws as it integrates them together into interactive multimedia complexes.



In the end, it probably all boils down to paradigms, world views, and assumptions and beliefs about what is possible given what you know and understand, and conversely, how you understand what you think you know is possible. Games and interactive media and the speed of data flux that computers enable really stretch the imagination, such that I vainly think that for the first time in human history since humans were held in the grip of superstition and total bewilderment at the mysteries of their immediate universe, we just might be at or close to a similar rediscovery within the virtual world. The difference with gamers is that they simply assume that anything is possible in the world of a game, or they think nothing of the surreal limitations imposed on them through design or technical specs. With anyone unfamiliar with interactive media, or worse, couched in the comfort of long-established knowledge of traditional media, there's an idea that "all bets are off" and vertigo sets in whenever UI confusion doesn't get in the way.



Um, so I guess that last part boils down to: "Ebert's just being an old geezer who is afraid of what he really doesn't understand and may even feel threatens or goes against most of what he knows about what he knows best."


May 03, 2010


@Jonathan I like your two alternate questions: "Have video games shown that they can communicate ideas that cannot be communicated in other media?" and "Have video game communicated ideas "better" than how the same ideas are communicated in other media?" These are the kinds of talking points that the industry should put energies into answering and showcasing.



Your discussion of game developers setting the boundaries of interaction compares well with an architect defining the boundaries and structure of a building. And there are many architectural examples that are considered art. Also the people occupying a building use the space as they see fit and perhaps not as the original architect intended, much the way a player might interact with a game. Authorial control is not essential to art.



* I know you said Frank, but I think you meant John. I get confused myself sometimes. ;)


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